--- Day changed

--- Log opened Tue May 27 00:00:01 2003
03:18 < Aike> Hey, im pretty new to UML. I ran it once successfully but now my uml hangs on booting
03:18 < Aike> saying: Enter runlevel:
03:18 < Aike> what's wrong with it ?
03:23 < Aike> it's 9:11 in the morning, but i guess you're all asleep :D
03:28 < green> hehe
03:29 < green> so what have you changed since last successful boot?
03:30 < Aike> nothing, but i didn't shutdown --> lost my ssh connection
03:30  * Aike sees that green is from russia :D
03:33  * Aike leaves to school, back in 4 hours
03:34 < green> hehe. cool school, not much classes
03:59 < BB> bong
04:46 < raceme> hi
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09:38  * green noticed that karaya.com domain have disappeared. Hm, how do we reach Jeff these days?
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10:14 -!- ChanServ changed the topic of #uml to: User Mode Linux | 2.4.20-5um, 2.5.69-1um, 2.4.21-rc3-djc1-5um | http://user-mode-linux.sf.net | http://usermodelinux.org | http://usermodelinux.co.uk | http://uml.openconsultancy.com | http://www.stearns.org/slartibartfast
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12:39 < david> hello
12:42 < Lathiat> lo
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14:08 < caker> green: it expired a few days ago - wonder if they know
14:08 < green> sigh
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14:55 < Newbee> Using hostfs, I copied an a.out from host to uml /; typing /a.out yields Not Found?
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15:08 < jordi> i guess someone will know 
15:09 < jordi> it's difficult to make a virtual hardware to run under UML
15:09 < caker> Newbee: is it set executable?
15:10 < jordi> a program that cheats UML and makes it thinks that there's harware that really it's not
15:10 < Newbee> yes, do I need to link to a special library?
15:10 < green> jordi: well, ther is no hardware in UML, but you can write a driver for non-existent device that will behave like there is in fact some device
15:10 < jordi> green: that will become complex as a lot of  hardware can be done
15:11 < jordi> i'd like it in userspace
15:11 < jordi> virtual devices where i can read and write to and UML thinks are real ones
15:11 < green> jordi: tihs is possible and there are some working examples of that.
15:11 < jordi> in the uml web?
15:11 < green> jordi: But if you need something special like special ioctls/whatever, you need to write your one/modify existing one
15:12 < green> jordi: uml comes with virtual block device that is backed by host files and virtual chracter devices taht can be backe by lots of stuff on host - ptys/xterms/filedescriptors/...
15:13 < jordi> file descriptos .. umm so i can take control over them
15:13 < green> sure
15:13 < jordi> my idea is making a simulation hardware system 
15:14 < jordi> aimed to robots development
15:14 < jordi> you makes your robot with an editor add it sensors and the sort
15:14 < jordi> then make it run 
15:14 < jordi> run means run UML and over this your system with your programs
15:15 < jordi> so you can simulate before actually making the robot
15:15 < jordi> so i need for instance create non existing sensors
15:15 < jordi> and controlling serial communication and lots of other issues
15:15 < green> this is possible
15:16 < caker> jordi: i don't see why UML is necessary .. ? seems like just a normal userspace app would work ?
15:16 < jordi> caker: i want that your system over the virtual hardware (UML+System+ robot controlling programs) like they are works in actual hardware
15:17 < jordi> well, you'd need to recompile etc.
15:17 < jordi> it's very difficult if yoou think about it, lots of small issues
15:17 < jordi> The aim iis not only simulating a program or algorithm but a system
15:20 < jordi> it has been a relief, it really will become really difficult if a lot of kerner modules must be done , at least this won't be necesary
15:20 < jordi> well, at least difficult to me that only has done a couple of dummy drivers, maybe trivial to you :P
15:21 < caker> jordi: how are your sensors and communications? if they use standard serial ports and whatnot, UML can emulate that ..?
15:22 < jordi> They can be lots of things, when building a robot any home made hardware is Ok 
15:23 < caker> jordi: what is the method of communicating with "home made hardware"?
15:23 < caker> are we talking PCI devices, or UART/serial port stuff?
15:23 < jordi> lots of time serial, parallel ports are used because you have the drivers
15:23 < caker> UML has this already - all you'd need to do is write a "wrapper" or an emulator and launch it on the HOST before launching the UML instance
15:24 < caker> and connect the UML's virtual devices to your hardware emulation program running on the host machine
15:24 < jordi> caker: all kind of stuff : videocamera for eyes, usb to controll a small moving thing, or serial to get data, can be anything
15:24 < caker> hmm
15:24 < jordi> when it's home made hardware, you need also to doo home made driver
15:24 < caker> serial port stuff is 
15:24 < caker> easy, the usb stuff might be harder to emulate
15:25 < jordi> caker, yes, i know, it's not an easy task 
15:26 < jordi> the main problem is home made hardware i think. 
15:26 < jordi> i need the user to add a module to UML to control his hardware that really  don't exist
15:26 < jordi> and the virtual hardware llayer must bee perfect in emulating hardware, umm, hard
15:27 < jordi> i'll leave that to a 2.0 release or something
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15:29 < Newbee> Will any a.out run on UML or is a special link required?
15:30 < caker> Newbee: it will run as long as your uml kernel has a.out support
15:30 < caker> (which I suspect it does)
15:30 < caker> :-)
15:31 < Newbee> The cpp file just has a fork/printf/exit in it; cc on host; copied to UML; shell says Not Found
15:34 < BB> i assume a ls shows its there?
15:34 < Newbee> yes it's in / and 755
15:34 < caker> Newbee: are you sure it's compiled?
15:34 < caker> Newbee: less /a.out - see what you get
15:35 < Newbee> Yes, same file runs on host; could a DLL be missing?
15:35 < caker> Newbee: what UML kernel are you using?
15:36 < Newbee> 2.4.20
15:36 < caker> Newbee: make sure CONFIG_BINFMT_AOUT=y is set in your .config
15:37 < Newbee> ok, will check; also tried /mnt/host/usr/local/bin/.. and got same err
15:41 < Newbee> yes --showconfig shows it set; would .cpp versus .c make a diff?
15:44 < Newbee> /mnt/host/usr/bin/yes Not Found /mnt/host/usr/local/bin/bzip works??
15:45 < caker> try file /a.out, or file /mnt/host/usr/bin/yes
15:45 < caker> see what it says
15:46 < Newbee> both "not found"
15:46 < caker> you're screwed
15:46 < caker> :-p
15:46 < BB> lol
15:47 < Newbee> OK, so there must be directions somewhere on how to compile user prog?
15:48 < caker> green: just noticed someone just paid for karaya.com :-)
15:48 < caker> green: exp date is now 2004
15:48 < Newbee> where's the makefile for the utilities on root_fs?
15:48 < caker> Newbee: what ?
15:49 < Newbee> How to compile on host so prog runs on UML?
15:49 < caker> Newbee: you're doing something very wrong, all that stuff should work
15:49 < caker> out of the box
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16:04 < Newbee> FYI, linux does generate "not found" if dyn lib is missing; further host sys commands were ELF not a.out
16:05 < Newbee> copying ld-linux.so.2 and libc.so.6 to uml /lib fixed the problem so i can run all host commands on uml
16:07 < Newbee> Suggestion: Should uml check for /lib compat between root_fs and host /lib?
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16:09 < BB> what a strange newbee
16:14 < Aike> indeed
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17:20 < jordi> dinner! thanks for all, bye
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17:41 < Aike> hmm, what's the difference between "just running root_fs" and "doing a full host-kernelrecompile and then run the root_fs" ?
17:41 < caker> you mean to get skas support on the host?
17:42 < Aike> i mean, i run some filesystems but didn't apply any patch, what's the advantage of the patches ?
17:42 < Aike> caker, i was following this howto: http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/UserModeLinux-HOWTO-2.html#ss2.2
17:42 < caker> Aike: http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/skas.html
17:43 < caker> ahh, you're talking about building the UML kernel (the "linux" program), not the host kernel
17:44 < Aike> ow, ghehe you don't have to rebuild youre host kernel ?
17:44 < caker> you don't *have* to, but UML is better/faster/stronger when running on a host with the skas patch
17:45 < caker> also, when building the "linux" program with modules support is insecure
17:45 < caker> so I just skip the mod-install-into-my-uml-filesystem step
17:45 < Aike> hmm, security is important to my project, thanks :)
17:45 < caker> no hostfs, no modules
17:46 < caker> for starters ....
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18:46 < shark> Do hosts running UMLs normally pass on multicast network traffic into the UMLs?  (Mine doesn't seem to be doing that.)
18:48 < david> shark: depends on the network transport used
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19:46 < mistik1> hey david 
19:49 < shark> david: I'm using eth0=tuntap,,,192.168.0.10  on the command line.  I saw there was a transport called mcast, but it looked like the purpose of that was setting up a virtual network between uml hosts.  
19:50 < mistik1> tuntap is so, like obsolete
19:50 < david> mistik1: er, no it isn't
19:51 < david> shark: right, that's a routed network - you're not going to route multicast traffic over a 192.168.x.x IP
19:51 < david> shark: if you bridge, then it works like a regular switch
19:51 < mistik1> Is this the old TUN/TAP stuff
19:51 < david> mistik1: no, this is TUN/TAP
19:51 < david> as opposed to ethertap, which is old
19:51 < david> TUN/TAP is new in 2.4
19:51 < mistik1> ok
19:51 < caker> that's soooooo 2002, man :-p
19:51 < mistik1> hahaha'
19:52 < david> TUN/TAP is actually pretty old
19:52 < david> it's from vtund
19:52 < mistik1> david: what has proven the most reliable transport for you to date
19:53 < david> mistik1: tuntap & bridge
19:53 < david> I use that for everything
19:53 < caker> i second
19:53 < mistik1> cool
19:53 < david> I usually just bridge it onto my switch
19:54 < shark> thanks, david.  so, if i want to make my host act as a bridge then, any idea what I should read on how to set that up?  
19:56 < shark> hmm, it looks like the networking.html page on uml.sf.net may show me.
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19:57 < david> shark: usermodelinux.org has some docs if you search for 'brctl' on the site
20:00 < shark> ah, thanks. :)
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21:10 < caker> What's the likelyhood of getting skas working on 2.5?
23:54 < david> caker: depends if ptrace changed much/at all in 2.5
23:54 < david> caker: try applying the patch and see what breaks ;-)
23:54 < caker> david: about 80% of it fails :(
23:57 < david> caker: ah, well
23:57 < david> caker: guess tha answers your question ;-)
23:57 < david> caker: Jeff needs to get rid of the proc/mm crap and make it work nicely first
23:58 < caker> david: just curious if someone had made it work already :-p
23:58 < caker> david: how's the online build tool coming?
23:58 < david> caker: go it parsing config.in properly
23:59 < david> caker: I was working on the house more this weekend, so I didn't get much chance to play with it
--- Log closed Wed May 28 00:00:00 2003