--- Day changed

--- Log opened Sun Jun 15 00:00:01 2003
00:00 < Pahan> Whee, 802.1q tagging.
00:00 < Pahan> Also, rootstrap/debootstrap are grossly broken.
00:02 < alt> anyone use the SKAS patch?
00:02 < david> alt: yes
00:02 < alt> have you used it against 2.4.18?
00:02 < alt> or just 2.4.19?
00:02 < Pahan> 2.4.20 here.
00:03 < alt> okay, so I shouldn't have any problems compiling a Debian with 2.4.18 :)
00:03 < david> alt: why would you use something eariler than 2.4.21? <2.4.21 is insecure and nicely broken
00:03 < Pahan> david: Because 2.4.21 is not out yet?
00:03 < alt> david: I'm just using the debian kernel package
00:03 < david> Pahan: er, yes it is
00:03 < Pahan> oh wtf
00:03 < Pahan> :(
00:03 < david> alt: maybe get a new kernel then <2.4.21 has a local root exploit
00:03 < Pahan> It came out just as I recompiled my kernel.
00:04 < Pahan> Debian probably patches those exploits in its kernels.
00:04 < alt> david: okay.. thanks for the heads up
00:04 < david> alt: np
00:04 < alt> I'm not worried about security at this point. I'm only in the prototype stage 
00:04 < david> Pahan: yes, but it doesn't fix the elevator fix, AFAIK
00:04 < alt> but my production machine will be a different matter
00:04  * Pahan groans.
00:04 < Pahan> 4.2.21 is not packaged for Debian yet.
00:05 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Man, it was just released yesterday :)
00:06 < alt> wow.. they're still maintaining the 2.0 kernel?
00:06 < alt> cool
00:06 < Pahan> ElectricElf: But I am using unstable!@#
00:06 < alt> thats like 4 years old
00:07 < ElectricElf> alt: Lot of places still use 'em.
00:07 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Heh :)
00:07 < david> Pahan: can't you compile your own kernel?
00:07 < david> alt: it's stable :-)
00:07 < david> alt: lots of embedded systems use it
00:07 < ElectricElf> Pahan: You are talking about kernel-source-2.4.21, right?
00:07 < alt> I know, it's just always a shock to see people still using that
00:07 < Pahan> ElectricElf: Yes. Are those modified from official versions?
00:07 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Yes.
00:07 < alt> 2.2 was a huge improvement over 2.0
00:07 < alt> and 2.4 over 2.2
00:07 < alt> but hey, if it works, it works
00:08 < ElectricElf> Pahan: The main modification that goes into each release is the ability to use cramfs as the initrd. Stock kernel can't do that.
00:08 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Or something to that affect.
00:08 < alt> or in the words of Red Green, "If it ain't broke, you're not trying"!
00:08 < ElectricElf> Pahan: But there are all sorts of other things that'll often get in the Debian packages - read /usr/share/doc/kernel-source-2.4.20/README.Debian.gz
00:08 < ElectricElf> Pahan: (Of course, you can easily get 2.4.21 yourself and use make-kpkg :)
00:08 < Pahan> ElectricElf: I want magic Debian fixes!
00:09 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Yes yes :)
00:09  * Pahan does "apt-get source kernel-source-2.4.20" and enjoys the weirdness.
00:09 < Pahan> ElectricElf: Did Debian folks figure out shared /usr deployment yet?
00:09  * ElectricElf would almost suggest Pahan mail Xu and bitch and moan, but decides that *nobody* deserves that, no matter how entertaining it would be for himself
00:10 < ElectricElf> Pahan: /usr can't be shared.
00:10 < ElectricElf> Pahan: /usr/share can though.
00:10 < Pahan> /usr can theoretically be shared.
00:10 < ElectricElf> Pahan: (And has been shareable for many moons.)
00:10 < ElectricElf> Pahan: How do you share /usr/bin?
00:10 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Oooh, you mean among boxes of identical architectures?
00:10 < Pahan> ElectricElf: Why not? If I have a bunch of identical UML machines, I want everything to be shared except certain files in /etc
00:10 < Pahan> Yes.
00:10 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Just share it. No different than /usr/share.
00:11 < Pahan> Hrm.
00:11 < Pahan> The idea is to do apt-get upgrade once.
00:11 < Pahan> Won't work if only /usr is shared.
00:11 < Pahan> omg wtf :(
00:11 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Depends on the package set you have installed, yes.
00:11 < Pahan> My /tmp is full. Damn tmpfs
00:11 < ElectricElf> Pahan: But you can share everything but /var and /etc.
00:12 < ElectricElf> Pahan: (Those are machine-specific.)
00:12 < Pahan> /etc is not machine-specific with the kind of setup I am talking about.
00:12 < ElectricElf> Pahan: /etc is, by definition, machine-specific.
00:12 < Pahan> /etc/hosts and /etc/network/interfaces are unique.
00:13 < Pahan> The rest can be shared quite nicely.
00:13 < Pahan> Well, /etc/hostname as well.
00:13 < ElectricElf> Pahan: It may happen to be that in your circumstances, it doesn't really *need* to be, but that's a very special case :)
00:13 < ElectricElf> Pahan: /var can't be safely shared either.
00:13 < Pahan> That breaks the single-upgrade idea very well.
00:13 < ElectricElf> (Worse so than /etc)
00:13 < ElectricElf> Pahan: *shrug*, depends on what you want.
00:14 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Keep a "stock" installation with nothing shared, and share everything off that.
00:14 < ElectricElf> Pahan: If some structure in /var changes, then update the clients via a script or something. It's trivial.
00:14 < Pahan> Ugh.
00:14 < Pahan> Sounds hackish.
00:14 < ElectricElf> It's called "systems administration", but feel free to use any term you want. :)
00:15 < ElectricElf> Whether it's hackish or not depends on the implementation ;)
00:15 < Pahan> I choose "inflicting pain on oneself"!
00:15 < Pahan> Argh.
00:15 < Pahan> Then there's the whole pain with restarting freshly upgraded daemons.
00:15 < ElectricElf> Pahan: You can get away with sharing bits of /var, but it has to be examined on a case-by-case daemon (unsurprisingly, this is identical to /etc).
00:16 < ElectricElf> Pahan: *cough* script *cough*
00:16 < ElectricElf> s/daemon/casis/, too :)
00:16 < ElectricElf> That's what I get for reading and writing at the same time ;)
00:16 < Pahan> *cough* whydontdebianpeopledothis *cough*
00:17 < ElectricElf> Pahan: It can't be done that way. This stuff is very site-specific.
00:17 < Pahan> It's a useful thing for the distro to have. It is not a useful thing for me to implement.
00:17 < ElectricElf> Pfft.
00:17 < Pahan> There could be a suitable framework.
00:17 < ElectricElf> Pahan: There is. It's called "shell".
00:17 < Pahan> People who write shell scripts for anything longer than 5 lines should be murdered.
00:17 < ElectricElf> Mmmhmm.
00:18 < Pahan> I can prove it!
00:18 < Pahan> I spent some time fucking with debootstrap today because shell scripts have pathetic error handling.
00:18 < ElectricElf> Whatever :)
00:19 < Pahan> Turns out rootstrap is broken and doesn't allocate enough space for stuff.
00:19 < Pahan> So wget runs out, dies, and gets restarted.
00:20 < Pahan> No indication whatsoever.
00:26 < alt> well, there's one line that's different between the patch and 2.4.18
00:26  * alt is nervous now
00:29 < alt> okay, next question, there's an option for /proc/mm now, should I use that?
00:29 < Pahan> Hrm. Why can't root user in a UML jail break out of it?
00:30 < ElectricElf> Pahan: They can.
00:31 < ElectricElf> Pahan: At least, TT-mode jail isn
00:31 < Pahan> Then isn't all the "leet security!@#" hype meaningless?
00:31 < Pahan> Hrm.
00:31 < ElectricElf> Pahan: TT-mode jail isn't trusted by the authors, last I checked.
00:31 < Pahan> How is skas jail more secure?
00:31 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Correct. Doing it in SKAS is way easier.
00:31 < Pahan> Heh.
00:31 < ElectricElf> Pahan: I posted a patch to the list a while ago that implemented the CLI option 'secure'. Disables module loading and various other things root within the UML could do to execute arbitrary code in the host address space.
00:32 < Pahan> Oh.
00:32 < ElectricElf> Pahan: (It needs some cosmetic changes before it'll be integrated, but all the functionality works.)
00:33 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Oh, and for the record, there is no skas jail mode right now.
00:33 < ElectricElf> Pahan: The patch I mentioned adds it.
00:33 < Pahan> I see.
00:38 < alt> ElectricElf: speaking of jail modes, is there a way to prevent hostfs mode from being utilized? or is that done during the compile of the UML kernel? (I haven't done my own compile yet)
00:38 < ElectricElf> alt: Right now it's done during the compile.
00:38 < alt> okay
00:38 < ElectricElf> alt: The patch I mentioned makes hostfs mounting dependant upon CAP_SYS_RAWIO, which is removed when started with 'secure'.
00:38 < alt> I'm sortof using it as jail mode, but the people who are going to use the virtual servers are people I know and trust (mostly)
00:39 < alt> ElectricElf: it sounds like a great patch
00:39 < ElectricElf> alt: (So specifying "secure" disables hostfs mounting as well. Might be better to be a different option.)
00:39 < ElectricElf> alt: Thanks. Pretty trivial though.
00:39 < alt> for me... not so trivial :)
00:39 < ElectricElf> alt: It's really quite small :)
00:39 < alt> people doing the work are greatly appreciated :)
00:39 < ElectricElf> alt: I started from scratch, I don't even know C.
00:39 < Pahan> ElectricElf: Is it not possible to limit hostfs to a single directory (which, for example, can be mounted on a 10k tmpfs mount)
00:39 < ElectricElf> Pahan: I don't believe so.
00:40 < alt> ElectricElf: I know some C but haven't used it in about 3 years
00:40 < ElectricElf> Pahan: I thought about something like that for my patch, but it's beyond my means unfortunately.
00:40 < alt> that'd be a nice feature as well
00:40 < ElectricElf> Pahan: (And would also be a fair bit of added complexity, so it may or may not be acceptable to everybody else.)
00:40 < ElectricElf> Yeah, it's interesting at least.
00:40 < Pahan> ElectricElf: I was pretty sure UML had that feature. My mistake.
00:40 < ElectricElf> But it kind of flies against the jail concept too.
00:40 < ElectricElf> Pahan: I might be wrong :)
00:41 < alt> that might be best done via NFS Pahan
00:41 < ElectricElf> alt: A good jail doesn't require any measures on the host system - whether it be a UML or otherwise.
00:41 < ElectricElf> alt: FreeBSD has a jail() system call which is the equivalent of a chroot, as well as restricting everything to using one IP.
00:41 < ElectricElf> alt: You don't need to add in firewalling stuff, don't need to poke around anything else, it's safe and simple.
00:42 < ElectricElf> If you let people access even just some directories (or one), that opens up a fair number of worries.
00:42 < Pahan> ElectricElf: http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/hostfs.html , second section
00:42 < alt> yeah, I think you are right
00:43 < ElectricElf> Pahan: What, the root filesystem stuff?
00:43 < ElectricElf> Pahan: That just specifies where the root of the UML's root filesystem is, in the host filesystem.
00:43 < Pahan> ElectricElf: Conveniently enough, this is not mentioned in linux(1) manpage. It limits hostfs mounts to a directory.
00:43 -!- albino [~albino@neuf.dorms.usu.edu] has joined #uml
00:43 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Doesn't stop somebody within the UML from mounting anythin else.
00:43 < Pahan> "which can be used confine all hostfs mounts to a host directory "
00:43 < Pahan> ElectricElf: What else CAN they mount?
00:43 < ElectricElf> Erk.
00:43 < ElectricElf> Hold on, I was looking at the wrong section.
00:43 < Pahan> :)
00:44 < ElectricElf> Pahan: Right, so there you go then :)
00:44 < ElectricElf> alt: He's quite right, you can do that.
00:44 < alt> I see it
00:44 < ElectricElf> alt: My patch still disables it, but in light of this (when I get around to fixing those cosmetic things), I'll add a second option specific to hostfs.
00:44 < ElectricElf> Oh, wait, no, that'll be ugly.
00:44 < ElectricElf> Requires thought :)
00:44 < alt> I just started with this yesterday or the day before
00:44 < alt> hee hee
00:44 < ElectricElf> Hehe :)
00:46 < alt> I get the impression that the UML can initiate mounts tho, which is what I don't want
00:47 < alt> guess I'll just remove that functionality from the UML kernel :)
00:48 < ElectricElf> Heh :)
00:49 < alt> oh good.. the mm directory compiled
00:49 < alt> I was concerned about that because I had to manually edit one of the files
01:19  * alt is back (gone 24:28:50)
01:35 < alt> okay, another question
01:35 < alt> I've got my host kernel compiled with the skas patch and have run the VM with mode=skas
01:35 < alt> there was no error message, so does that mean skas mode is active?
01:36 < ElectricElf> alt: Check the very beginning of the output, it'll tell you if it's in SKAS or TT mode.
01:36 < alt> will dmesg tell me that?
01:36 < alt> or is it only on startup?
01:36 < ElectricElf> alt: Maybe, but I don't know for certain.
01:36 < alt> I'll restart the VM then
01:36 < ElectricElf> alt: If it doesn't say anything about which mode it went into, then I'd say no. :)
01:37 < alt> ugh
01:37 < alt> tracing thread pid = 1134
01:38 < alt> yeah, that's like the only thing that mentions either tracing thread or skas
01:39 < alt> i'm gonna see what happens when I boot a kernel I know doesn't have skas
01:40 < alt> oops
01:40 < alt> rebooted the machine without shutting down the UML session :|
01:41 < Pahan> Try /proc/cpuinfo inside the UML.
01:41 < alt> oh
01:41 < alt> okay
01:41 < alt> I'm already rebooting, so I'll do that next pass
01:47  * gump is back -( out )- gone 11 hr 42 min 15 s
01:49 < alt> am I missing somethign, do I put "mode=skas" on the command line?
01:51 < Pahan> Do you have a /proc/mm on the host?
01:51 < alt> yes
01:52 < alt> well, not with this kernel
01:52 < Pahan> Umm.
01:52 < alt> I was trying something
01:52 < alt> I built a kernel that's patched for skas
01:52 < alt> rebooting the machine now
01:52 < gump> morning
01:52 < alt> hi gump
01:55 < alt> --w--w--w-    1 root     root            0 Jun 15 01:00 mm <--- there it is :)
01:57 < alt> well.. it looks as though I'm NOT in skas mode :(
01:57 < alt> afaik, I should only see 4 processes for each UML
01:57 < alt> and I shouldn't see the stuff insife
01:57 < alt> and I shouldn't see the stuff inside 
01:58 < alt> well.. bedtime
01:59 < gump> hehe
01:59 < gump> i just got home
01:59 < gump> its gonna be such a hot day today
01:59 < gump> i walked 2 miles home froms ome random birds place
01:59 < gump> and it was so hot i did the whole trip topless
02:40 -!- HaloBoy [~jcc@haw-207-182-233-109.vel.net] has joined #uml
02:40 < HaloBoy> hi
02:40 < gump> morning
02:41 < HaloBoy> I have a simple question that I haven't been able to find on the sites
02:41 < HaloBoy> how much of a speed hit do I get running uml?
02:41 < gump> im afraid i cant help u cos ive never tried uml....
02:42 < gump> still waiting on sca caddys for my new 1u box to start testing uml
02:42 < green> HaloBoy: depends on what you plan to do
02:42 < HaloBoy> ahhh
02:42 < HaloBoy> well
02:42 < HaloBoy> I was going to run processor intensive apps
02:42 < HaloBoy> in a jailed uml
02:42 < HaloBoy> so that it won't segfault the kernel
02:42 < HaloBoy> the real kernel
02:42 < green> HaloBoy: the only overhead in this case will be on syscals and context switches.
02:43 < HaloBoy> ahhh
02:43 < HaloBoy> what about running uml on a openmosix group?
02:43 < green> native cpu code executes on real cpu as well anyway
02:43 < HaloBoy> thus combining cpus from multiple machines?
02:43 < green> cannot say about openmosix, probably it is not so easy to achieve?
02:44 < Pahan> uml and openmosix are not compatible, IIRC
02:44 < HaloBoy> openmosix appears as a single image machine to the apps
02:44 < HaloBoy> argh
02:44 < HaloBoy> wait
02:44 < HaloBoy> i mean to run uml on an openmosix
02:45 < HaloBoy> anyclustering and uml?
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02:50 < Pahan> Heh, whacky.
02:53 < BB> whacky races?
02:54 < Pahan> Running UML in tt mode on openmosix is whacky.
02:54 < Pahan> Not sure whether it would work, though.
02:54 < Pahan> I could probably try it with vmware.
02:55 < BB> i tried to patch openmosix with skas and failed rather badly
02:56 < Pahan> You want a lot of processes to migrate back and forth.
02:58 < BB> I didnt mind if the uml moved or not i wanted them for disjoint purposes
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04:06 < caker> http://www.mosixview.com/umopenmosix/umopenmosix.html
04:07 < caker> kinda backwards though
04:13 < ElectricElf> That's just sick. :)
04:13 < BB> heh
04:14 < BB> and they have a better distributed.net team than me *cry*
04:14 < ElectricElf> lol
04:14 < Lathiat> lol
04:16 < BB> hey some things are important in life lol
04:17 < Lathiat> heh
04:17 < Lathiat> ive got an ownage flame team
04:18 < Lathiat> well it migh tnot own that much
04:18 < Lathiat> but it still owns :P
04:18 -!- avoozzzl is now known as avoozl
04:21  * BB 's dnetc team is only ranked 425 :( I need more power !
04:21 < Lathiat> heh
04:21 < Lathiat> out of how many?
04:22 < BB> about 3k
04:22 < Lathiat> not toooo bad
04:22 < Lathiat> get more power :p
04:23 < BB> heh
04:24 < BB> I do keep finding machines i havnt put it on
04:31 < avoozl> hmz my account at the local cray seems to have been disabled already :P
04:32 < caker> my p4 is faster than your cray :-p
04:32 < caker> although I did see a cray on ebay a while back .. 
04:33 < BB> caker same here, but i wouldnt of been able to afford just the shipping 
04:33 < caker> right heh
04:33 < avoozl> i doubt its faster
04:34 < BB> depends on the job in hand
04:34 < avoozl> 600Mflops/proc times 180
04:35 < caker> that sounds like a lot
04:35 < avoozl> its a fairly recent t3e
04:35 < avoozl> but the das2 here does beats it by quite a length
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07:29 < yeti> is someone with massiv uml_switch experiences oline? :-)
07:31 < yeti> especially: when i want to use uml_switch: do all umls need to be run by the same user who started uml_switch?
07:31 < Lathiat> hrm
07:31 < Lathiat> dont think so
07:32 < yeti> for now each uml has an own uid/gid here
07:32 < yeti> and i use preconfigured taps
07:32 < Lathiat> i liek taps personally
07:32 < yeti> i read bridgin is said to be cpu intensive
07:33 < yeti> and i dont want each uml to be routed
07:33 < yeti> si i assume a uml_switch with -tap would be what i want
07:33 < yeti> si->so
07:34 < yeti> and i remember from ancient uml_switch experiments: when uml_switch terminates and gets restarted, the connection to the uls is dead and stays dead
07:35 < yeti> has this changed?
07:35 < yeti> a real switch could be turned off/on and the systems wold see each other again
07:37 < Lathiat> well see
07:37 < Lathiat> it works on a socket soo
07:37 < Lathiat> i doubt it highly
07:37 < yeti> i'll play with that a bit...
07:37 < Lathiat> i think u can specify a custom socket
07:37 < Lathiat> if u forced uml to re-open the socket it might work
07:38 < yeti> i mean: when uml_switch dies and gets restarted all connections sty lost?
07:38 < yeti> sty->stay
07:39 < yeti> hmmmm...
07:39 < yeti> i need to extend my uml environment a bit to test that
07:39 < yeti> for now its taylored to use taps only
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07:56 < yeti> uml_switch -tap something   run by root, uml with own u/gid, eth1=daemon, got permission denied of ifconfig eth1
07:56 < yeti> :-(
07:56 < Lathiat> ahh
07:56 < Lathiat> sux
07:57 < yeti> i want all my umls have separate u/gids
07:57 < yeti> but i want uml_switch -tap  instead of one tap per uml
07:57 < yeti> hmmm...
07:58 < yeti> ok... not topmos urgent topic...
07:58 < yeti> ( some typos due to heat.. :-/ )
08:01 < Lathiat> use taps ::P
08:01 < yeti> up to now i use taps
08:01 < yeti> tunctrl'd on if-up to the ul-uid
08:02 < yeti> uml-id
08:03 < Lathiat> bbiaw, phone usage.
08:03 < yeti> ok
08:16 < Lathiat> back
08:17 < yeti> ;-)
08:17 < yeti> I'm a bit silent a while, i make debs and a repository of my uml stuff
08:17 < yeti> (i need some slightly different kernel config than the distributed debs
09:35 < yeti>  
09:36 < yeti> ----------------------------------------------------------------
09:36 < yeti> was mir grad einfällt
09:36 < yeti> ...ich träume immer öfter vom rauchen
09:36 < yeti> das verwirt mich schon i traum...
09:36 < yeti> i->im
09:37 < yeti> tagsüber ists ziemlich egal, da denk ich fast nie dran
09:37 < yeti> muss ich mal begrübeln, wenn ich mal nicht am kompi sitz
09:37 < yeti> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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09:45 < yeti> ups
09:45 < yeti> wrong windows
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11:23 < BB> heh
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11:55 < yeti> does someone use tap names like uml10.tap0 ?
11:55 < yeti> i didnt try it up to now to connext to it but tunctrl seems to be able to make taps with such names
11:56 < BB> i have them named after users
11:56 < yeti> my users for umls are named uml+somenumber
11:57 < yeti> ;-)
11:57 < yeti> but i want to be able to have a) a scheme b) multiple umls per usert
11:57 < BB> well i have one called bassi00 and another bassi01
11:58 < yeti> with usernames like uml12 appending more digits would confuse me
11:58 < yeti> i need a delimiter
11:58 < yeti> seperator
11:58 < yeti> ;-/+
11:58 < yeti> too hot to think straight
11:59 < yeti> i have a dev dir in each uml's home where i have a symlink back to the tap (and other devices) i gave that uml
12:01 < alt> hi guys
12:01 < alt> how's things?
12:01 < yeti> toooo hot
12:01 < alt> heh
12:01 < alt> I know that feeling
12:02 < alt> it was pretty tough sleeping last night here
12:02 < green> heh. too cold in here ;)
12:04  * alt is jelous
12:04 < alt> anyhow, If I compile a UML kernel for SKAS, can I remove TT?
12:11 < Lathiat> if u wanant
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13:05 < gump> lo shak
13:05 < shak> hello gump
13:05  * shak tries the .69 patch on .70
13:06 < shak> not bad, only a few hunks failed
13:07 < gump> =]
13:07 < green> shak: some changes are still needed even after the patch is appied
13:07 < shak> I suppose I better do it properly, back down to 2.5.66 for me
13:08 < shak> green: for 2.5.70 or for all kernels?
13:09 < green> for 2.5.70+
13:10 < shak> I decided to go back to .66
13:12 -!- yeti [~yeti@pD950B016.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 492 seconds]
13:13 < mistik1> good day folks
13:14 < shak> good day sir
13:16 < shak> hrm
13:16 < shak> in the HOWTO it says "Make sure that you don't build this kernel in /usr/src/linux. On some distributions, /usr/include/asm is a link into this pool. The user-mode build changes the other end of that link, and things that include <asm/anything.h> stop compiling"
13:17 < shak> so where do I compile it?
13:17 < shak> Im in /usr/src/linux-2.5.66
13:18 < mistik1> Simply put do not patch over your HOST kernel tree
13:18 < mistik1> If that is not your host tree it matters not where its located
13:18 < shak> that's a tree of another kernel, I'm not running .66 at the moment
13:18 < alt> I'm personally trying to compile it under my home directory
13:18 < shak> but that kernel has been compiled for the host before
13:19 < alt> but my kernel panics when it tries to mount /devfs
13:19 < mistik1> alt: then start it devfs=nomount
13:19 < mistik1> unless you did not enable devfs and your rootfs needs it
13:19 < alt> yeah, trying that too
13:20 < shak> include/asm/processor.h:65: `CONFIG_X86_L1_CACHE_SHIFT' undeclared here (not in a function)
13:20 < shak> that's the error I'm getting while compiling
13:20 < alt> nope
13:20 < alt> hmm..let me double check
13:20 < alt> I'm pretty sure it's enables
13:20 < alt> I'm pretty sure it's enabled
13:21 < alt> oh.. I think I know what heppend
13:21 -!- yeti [~yeti@p3EE2292C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #uml
13:21 < mistik1> shak: I have no idea about inner kernel stuff
13:21 < alt> I think I did a "make dep" without the ARCH=um
13:22 < mistik1> heh
13:22 < alt> although, I don't know if I need to do a "make dep ARCH=um"
13:23 < mistik1> you do EVERYTHING ARCH=um
13:23 < alt> no.. I don't think I need to do a "make dep" anyhow... it's not in the documentation I'm reading
13:24 < shak> its not in the HOWTO on the site
13:24 < shak> Im going to try with a different kernel I think
13:24 < alt> either that or when they say "finish with" they mean the last command you would normally run
13:24 < shak> it says that it will stop compiling with the asm includes but mine does the asm includes
13:24 < shak> even if Im not in /usr/src
13:25 < mistik1> personally I dont bother with 2.5 even for testing not to mention UML
13:25 < alt> okay... I'm going to nuke the source tree 
13:25 < mistik1> I'm not a kernel developer of any kind so I leave it to the pros
13:26 < alt> I'll use stable, thanks :)
13:26 < shak> I use 2.5.x for testing
13:26 < shak> but I'll try .20 for UML
13:27 < mistik1> shak: when the doc talks about asm includes, it means the patch will change the includes so other apps you build will fail
13:27 < mistik1> its not talking about UML failing 
13:27 < shak> ah
13:27 < shak> I misunderstood
13:27 < shak> thanks :)
13:27 < mistik1> np
13:28 < mistik1> I suppose you now see the importance of not patching over your host tree ;-)
13:30 < shak> yep
13:38 < shak> te-tum, need a faster net connection
13:39 < gump> dont we all
13:39 < shak> 512kbits is slow
13:39 < shak> only getting 62.8kb/s off kernel.org
13:40 < gump> i only get 61KB outa my adsl
13:41 < shak> I can get 80kb/s sometimes
13:41 < david> you want 2.4.21, not 2.4.20
13:41 < shak> there's not a patch on the SF site for .21 though
13:42 < david> I made one
13:42 < david> kernels.usermodelinux.org/patches
13:42 < david> the original 2.4.20-6um applies pretty much file, apart from one reject
13:43 < shak> so, off to download .21 then
13:43 < shak> thanks david :)
13:46 < mistik1> hey david 
13:52 < shak> how many UML instances can I expect to run on a dual Athlon 1800+ with 0.5 GB RAM
13:53 < mistik1> many
13:53 < yeti> 3
13:53 < shak> I could do with more RAM
13:53 < mistik1> but you can run more if you send me that box =P
13:53 < shak> lol
13:53 < shak> Its my desktop
13:54 < mistik1> I run 3 on my athlon 650 392mb
13:54 < yeti> and i sometimes more than 4 on a k6-ii+
13:54 < yeti> 512m ram, 500 mhz
13:54 < shak> nice
13:55 < shak> maybe if I got 1GB more RAM
13:55 < shak> the performance might be better
13:55 < mistik1> depends on what you're doing with it
13:55 < yeti> but if you want to do serious things, an uml should get 128m
13:55 < mistik1> huh?
13:55 < shak> its going to do commercial UML hosting
13:55 < yeti> have fun
13:55 < caker> more ram = less having to go to disk - IO is still kinda sketchy in 2.4.X
13:55 < mistik1> the only thing UML need RAM for is to run the kernel itself
13:56 < mistik1> not for anything you run inside UML
13:56 < shak> to compile my kernel do I still do make dep?
13:56 < shak> make dep ARCH=um ?
13:56 < alt> hmm... something wrong with my SKAS host kernel
13:56 < mistik1> caker: I suppose you're using tmpfs fer $TMP
13:56 < yeti> you really want do commercial hosting and need to ask for make dep?  i am confused
13:56 < caker> correct
13:57 < shak> yeti: I can compile a kernel normally
13:57 < shak> just Im not sure if I still need to do the other steps
13:57 < shak> because in the HOWTO
13:57 < shak> it doesnt mention it
13:57 < shak> yeti: try not judging people so quickly.
13:57 < yeti> its staight forward but add ARCH=um
13:57 < mistik1> I still do make dep ARCH=um
13:58 < yeti> i made a hosting prototype maybe a year ago with a friend
13:58 < yeti> hmmm...
13:58 < yeti> lost the contact...
13:58 < caker> yeti: hosting prototype?
13:58 < yeti> uml server hosting
13:59 < yeti> some little scripts to set up debian umls on debian
13:59 < caker> check out Linode.com :-)
13:59 < yeti> and christian did a php interface to that
13:59 < yeti> he moved away and somehow we lost contact
14:00 < yeti> now i am kinda reviving that project with a slightly different target
14:00 < caker> yeti: what's that?
14:00 < yeti> multiple linuxes on one hardware, the umls run gdm/kdm/xdm and can be accesed via chooser
14:01 < caker> cool
14:01 < yeti> still too much manual work
14:01 < yeti> i am trying to clean that up a bit
14:01 < BB> i saw a place that gave remote access to a user account in X
14:01 < caker> BB: no uml involved?
14:01 < BB> caker nop
14:02 < BB> caker i think they used a vnc type approach for access
14:03 < caker> mistik1: btw, the demo accounts are going to be deleted this afternoon in preperation for launch tomorrow
14:03 < yeti> ftp://unimatrix-zero.borg-uv.org/pub/WilD/project/borg-20030422/usr/share/doc/borg/uml-setup.txt (sorry, outdated and in german)
14:04 < BB> hmm borg domains
14:04 < yeti> borg-uv should have been borg.uv (universe)
14:04 < yeti> but that is not available
14:04 < BB> heh
14:04 < BB> i got 7of9b.org in a drunken session the other night
14:05 < yeti> ;-)
14:06 < yeti> i'm thinking of "seven of two" as parody ;-)
14:07 < BB> heh
14:07 < alt> that's a great domain :)
14:08 < BB> gonna put mine on the new server when it arrives
14:09 < yeti> borg-uv.org is the domain of a friend of mine and it is managed by dyndns.org
14:09 < yeti> ;-)
14:09 < mistik1> caker: real launch or beta launch?
14:10 < yeti> use "stable" ,-))))
14:10 < caker> mistik1: grand opening tomorrow
14:10 < mistik1> cool
14:10 < mistik1> good luck my friend ;-)
14:10 < caker> mistik1: thanks!
14:10 < mistik1> and congrats
14:11 < caker> mistik1: thanks - It's been a long process
14:11 < mistik1> I would imagine so
14:18 < shak> hrm
14:18 < shak> its not compiling
14:18 < shak> :(
14:18 < yeti> i had do disable scsi to get 2.4.20-whatever-is-in-debian-um compiled
14:18 < shak> its errors in sscanf, sprintf and strpbrk
14:19 < yeti> thats different :-(
14:19 < mistik1> turn off gprof
14:19 < shak> ok
14:19 < mistik1> kernel debuging
14:19 < shak> thanks mist
14:19 < shak> mistik1
14:20 < yeti> dos someone knows about controlling a real nic from an uml?
14:21 < yeti> i read something somewhen but this was long ago
14:22 < alt> there is an effort to patch UML so it can talk directly to PCI devices
14:22 < alt> dunno if that's out of beta yet
14:22 < Lathiat> its around the mailing lists
14:22 < yeti> the last mention of that is long ago
14:22 < Lathiat> (including th epatches)
14:22 < Lathiat> but can u like load the ether drivers?
14:23 < yeti> ?
14:23  * Lathiat goes to sleep
14:24 < alt> unless you are doing something special, I can't see any need for PCI from within the VM
14:24 < Lathiat> alt: if u wan tot constrol devices, for debugging or for use
14:26 < alt> yeah, I realize that, but that'd be a pretty specialized application either way
14:26 < alt> I'm not saying it's not useful
14:26 < alt> just specialized
14:31 < shak> that sorted it, thanks. I'm now compiled :)
14:54 < yeti> shak: think about putting the uml's partitions on real partitions or logical volumes
14:55 < yeti> i never took timings but it feels faster
14:55 < yeti> logical volumes have administrative advantages
14:55 -!- ASY [~someone@216.221.51.54] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:56 -!- ASY [~someone@216.221.51.54] has joined #uml
15:00 < shak> thanks yeti
15:01 < yeti> and i am experimenting with "diskless" umls ;-)
15:01 < shak> :o
15:01 < shak> sounds promising :)
15:01 < yeti> having nfs-roots, some of the io (not swap!) can be done by a different box
15:01 < yeti> runs
15:01 < yeti> since months!!!
15:02 < yeti> but i still prefer filesystems on LVs
15:02 < yeti> you use debian?
15:02 < shak> slackware at the moment, just for this testing
15:03 < shak> I've just been researching the opportunities for a while
15:03 < shak> and now Im starting testing UML
15:03 < shak> and getting to know how it works etc
15:04 < yeti> you have static ips?
15:04 < shak> I work for an ISP with a class C spare
15:04 < shak> so a /24 worth of static IPs
15:04 < yeti> my current scheme needs 2 ips per uml
15:04 < yeti> :-(
15:04 < shak> :(
15:04 < yeti> for both sides of the tap
15:05 < yeti> i am looking for a better idea
15:05 < shak> let me get this straight, when Im running UML it doesn't require the host kernel to be patched?
15:05 < yeti> but i cannot become friends with uml_router
15:05 < yeti> uml ist faster when you apply th skas3 patch
15:05 < yeti> and honestly: i wouldnt touch tt-mode any more...
15:06 < yeti> so i patch the host kernel
15:06 < shak> ok
15:06 < yeti> i didnt understand uml_switch up to now or i do something wrong
15:07 < yeti> i want to have one userid for each uml and when i do so, i cannot connect them to the same uml_switch
15:07 < yeti> :-(
15:07 < yeti> but that could be a way to use less ips than 2 per uml
15:08 < shak> I'll look into it
15:08 < shak> if I can't find a solution 
15:08 < shak> then Im sure I can spare 2 IPs per UML
15:18 < BB> bassi has just been on the phone again trying to hook me up with barmaids in london lol
15:19 < BB> erm doh
15:20 < shak> heh
15:21 < mistik1> yeti: we need to talk
15:22 < yeti>  /query?
15:22 < mistik1> sure
15:22 < yeti> do it
15:29 < shak> hrm, I dont have a /dev/tap0
15:29  * shak goes to read
15:31 < shak> hrm..
15:31 < shak> doesnt mention anything in the howto, where does /dev/tap0 on the host come from?
15:33 < yeti> the host kernel needs the tun module
15:33 < shak> ah, ok, looks like I dont have that
15:33 < yeti> and you probably want tunctl from the uml-utilities(tools?) to manage the taps
15:34 < shak> yeah, I need to get around to installing them
15:34 < yeti> istall debian and i have some problems solved already ;-)
15:35 < shak>  ./linux eth0=ethertap,tap0,00:02:B3:8F:81:7A,192.168.123.137
15:35 < shak> on that, is the IP at the end, is that the host IP or the UML IP?
15:35 < yeti> ethertap?
15:35 < shak> Im following the HOWTO on the site
15:35 < yeti> use tuntap if you have it
15:35 < yeti> ethertap is a different driver
15:35 < shak> I dont at the moment, I'll install it in a moment
15:36 < yeti> if you want networking you need the uml-tools
15:36  * shak scurries off to install them
15:37  * yeti puts on his hypnotic face... uuuusssseeee debian
15:37 < shak> I dont have a spare machine at the moment
15:37 < yeti> :-(
15:37 < yeti> you understand german?
15:37 < shak> this slackware box is the only machine I have, and I need to use it for my workstation
15:38 < shak> er, I speak a bit of german, I'm ok at tech docs
15:38 < yeti> ftp://unimatrix-zero.borg-uv.org/pub/WilD/project/borg-20030422/usr/share/doc/borg/uml-setup.txt (sorry, outdated)
15:39 < shak> thanks, bookmarked
15:39 < yeti> have a look at /usr/lib/borg of that package
15:40 < yeti> kinda rapid script development lib
15:40 < shak> superb, thanks
15:41 < yeti> no big libs, but the resulting scripts automatically have a commandline and a command-loop way of usage
15:41 < shak> :)
15:43 < yeti> like:
15:43 < yeti> (uml0@kira:1)~$ uml
15:43 < yeti> uml> help
15:43 < yeti> boot     - boot uml0 (with console on current tty)
15:43 < yeti> bootargs - list bootargs
15:43 < yeti> bye      - to say bye twice, use exit ;-)
15:43 < yeti> exit     - just say bye bye ...
15:43 < yeti> halt     - halt uml0 (brute force halt)
15:43 < yeti> help     - guess what ;-)
15:43 < yeti> mconsole - mconsole on uml0
15:43 < yeti> pid      - pid of uml0
15:43 < yeti> rebuild  - rebuild uml0
15:43 < yeti> start    - start uml0 in background
15:43 < yeti> status   - about uml0
15:43 < yeti> stop     - stop uml0 (send ctrl-alt-del to uml0)
15:43 < yeti> uml> exit
15:43 < yeti> (os sorry.. didnt want to flood)
15:44 < yeti> that call would be the same as typing "uml help"
15:44 < shak> extremely nice :)
15:44 < yeti> i have some scripts
15:45 < yeti> the gag(?)
15:45 < yeti> hosts<<-endhosts
15:45 < yeti>   new
15:45 < yeti>   add 10.10.11.11 uml11
15:45 < yeti> endhosts
15:46 < yeti> (create etc/hosts with that one line)
15:46 < yeti> it is mappable to other structs like <hosts>...</hosts>
15:47 < yeti> i wanted a frontend to some sysad tasks where defining, changing, saving and restoring of some system configs is done with one frontend or style
15:48 < shak> I was thinking of writing something like that
15:48 < shak> or some web-based control panel
15:48 < shak> so that a user can control some of the options from a browser
15:49 < yeti> i want a commandline interface first
15:49 < yeti> the web part shall be a clean layer on top of that
15:49 < yeti> not aan extra way to do the same task
15:49 < shak> yeah
15:50 < shak> hrm..
15:50 < shak> not getting any networking
15:50 < shak> ifroot@uml0:~# ifconfig eth0 192.168.123.192 up
15:50 < shak> SIOCSIFFLAGS: Invalid argument
15:50 < shak> SIOCSIFFLAGS: Invalid argument
15:50 < yeti> and the uml commandline?
15:50 < shak> ah, I see why
15:51 < shak> I forgot about the patch for /dev/tap0 to exist
15:51 < yeti> patch?
15:51 < shak> <yeti> the host kernel needs the tun module
15:51 < shak> module
15:51 < shak> sorry.
15:51 < yeti> ok
15:52 < yeti> the patch is the skas3 patch. this will give more speed
15:52 < shak> ah
15:52 < yeti> but for the first experiments tt-mode is ok
15:52 < shak> hrm, Im not sure I fully understand this
15:52 < shak> what provides me with /dev/tap0?
15:54 < yeti> enabling the tun module in the host kernel
15:55 < shak> ok
15:55 < shak> so I need to recompile there
15:55 < yeti> what host kernel?
15:56 < yeti> some highly patched thingy?
15:56 < shak> 2.5.70 
15:56 < shak> vanilla
15:56 < yeti> ooooh
15:56 < yeti> donnow about host.skas3-patch on 2.5.x... :-(
15:56 < shak> hehe
15:56 < shak> I'll just run .21 then
15:56 < shak> doesnt matter to me really
15:57 < yeti> i'm using 2.4.19 to .21
15:57 < shak> I like the 2.5.x series better
15:57 < yeti> when i am finished with my idea, that will not matter anymore...
15:58 < yeti> i prefer the 2.4 kernels for critical systems
15:58 < shak> I might need to recompile the UML kernel too? for skas support
15:58 < shak> 2.5.68 runs fine on our gameserver
15:58 < yeti> burt i am thinking of a "carrier" system only minimal enough to run umls and some umls on it
15:58 < yeti> burt->but
15:59 < yeti> really minimal, no graphics or such bells and wistles ...
15:59 < shak> that should be nice
15:59 < yeti> that shall be a 2 system solution:
15:59 < yeti> one carrier, no X, only uml and networking
16:00 < yeti> one frontend: good graphics and contacting the umls via ssh or XDM
16:00 < yeti> maybe vnc too
16:00 < shak> :)
16:02 < yeti> i kinda have that setup here but the "real" system is not minimized because each uml-carrier has X too
16:02 < yeti> splitting frontend and uml-carrier shall improve reliability
16:03 < yeti> the uml-carrier has other tasks too atm, that is what i want to get rid of
16:03 < shak> :)
16:03 < shak> sounds like you've got it sorted
16:05 < yeti> hmmm....    long ago i made a hosting prototype with a friend...
16:05 < yeti> he said to have moved that project to sf.net...
16:05 < yeti> lemme see if i can find it
16:05 < shak> cool :)
16:05 < yeti> he took my scripts and made a php interface on top of that
16:06 < yeti> maybe that can be revived
16:06 < shak> if its opensource then I mightlook into using it
16:06 < yeti> donnow...
16:07 < yeti> the project was sleeping when he moved to sf.net
16:07 < yeti> :-(
16:07 < yeti> maybe killed 
16:08 < shak> :(
16:08 < yeti> i can try to find out his email...
16:08 < shak> if you could that would be superb, thanks mate :)
16:08 < yeti> yeah... look who owns borg-uv.org   ;-))))
16:09 < yeti> our hosting prototype was my scripts plus his php/mysql stuff
16:09 < yeti> he should have an outdated complete version somewhere
16:09 < shak> :)
16:10 < shak> you never went into business with it then?
16:10 < yeti> and if he asks (my scrips contain no copyright notice), my part can be seen as free
16:10 < yeti> free-er than gpl
16:10 < shak> super :)
16:10 < shak> I'll give you full credits
16:10 < shak> of course
16:11 < yeti> ;-)
16:11 < shak> :)
16:11 < shak> have you tried these netfast patches for UML kernels?
16:13 < yeti> http://sourceforge.net/projects/uml-config/
16:14 < yeti> gotcha!!!
16:14 < shak> This Project Has Not Released Any Files :(
16:14 < yeti> no, i havent tried any patches except combining uml+initrd-dyn
16:14 < shak> but I'll be able to contact him via there
16:14 < shak> thanks
16:14 < yeti> yep!
16:15  * shak gives yeti a cool drink
16:15 < yeti> if he's interested in reviving that project, he can mail me
16:15 < shak> :)
16:16 < yeti> but we always had some trouble: he only saw the hosting part and i saw much more possibilities like educational nets, network labs, ...
16:16 < shak> for my project I've been given a free-reign
16:16 < shak> I've been promised a dual CPU machine
16:16 < shak> possibly dual Xeons
16:16 < shak> and then they've said "get on with it"
16:17 < shak> which is nice
16:17 < yeti> i am uml-ing on a dual-p2@1000
16:17 < yeti> p3...
16:17 < shak> :)
16:17 < yeti> and on k6-II+/500 ;-)
16:17 < shak> ;-)
16:17 < shak> I'm testing on this box, and then hopefully should go live with a nice fat box
16:18 < yeti> i am dreaming of "desktop providing"
16:18  * BB has access to 2 dual xeons they are rather nice
16:18 < shak> chuckle
16:18 < shak> check thsi
16:18 < shak> s/thsi/this
16:18 < shak> Im compiling a new host kernel
16:18 < shak> and its almost done
16:18 < shak> and it failed with:
16:18 < shak> ld: final link failed: No space left on device
16:18 < shak> hehe
16:18 < yeti> :-/
16:18 < BB> whoops
16:22 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
16:23 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has joined #uml
16:23 < shak> oops
16:23 < shak> rebooting anyway
16:23 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has quit [Client Quit]
16:29 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has joined #uml
16:29 < shak> hmm
16:29 < shak> I enabled TUN in my kernel
16:29 < yeti> ?
16:29 < yeti> devfs?
16:29 < shak> but I still dont have /dev/tap0
16:29 < shak> yes, Im running devfs
16:29 < BB> how about a /dev/net/tun ?
16:29 < yeti> ;-)
16:29 < shak> aha :)
16:30 < shak> there she is
16:30 < shak> its 2.5.71 though, which was probably a little silly
16:30 < yeti> try ifconfig tap0 up
16:31 < shak> it came up fine
16:31 < yeti> ;-)))))))))
16:31 < shak> tap0      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr FE:FD:00:00:00:00  
16:31 < shak>           UP BROADCAST RUNNING NOARP MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
16:31 < shak>           RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
16:31 < shak>           TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
16:31 < shak>           collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 
16:31 < shak>           RX bytes:0 (0.0 b)  TX bytes:0 (0.0 b)
16:31 < shak> sorry for spam
16:31 < shak> so now, I can try networking in UML
16:31 < shak> \o/
16:31 < yeti>  +
16:31 < yeti>  +
16:32 < yeti> , .
16:32 < yeti> | |
16:32 < mistik1> ascii art day
16:32 < yeti> legs too long :-(
16:32  * yeti is an old console fossil
16:33  * yeti would vote for a pics ban in the www
16:33 < mistik1> and something is wrong with an old console fosil?
16:33 < yeti> no
16:33 < shak> hrm..
16:33 < mistik1> ok
16:33 < shak> root@uml0:~# ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.254 up seems to have hung
16:35 < yeti> seems?
16:35 < shak> well, it has hung
16:35 < shak> any ifconfig is hanging
16:36 < yeti> strange
16:36 < shak> maybe its 2.5.x
16:36 < shak> :(
16:36 < shak> as the host
16:36 < shak> root@uml0:~# ifconfig eth0 192.168.123.195 up
16:36 < shak> its just sitting there
16:37 < shak> ah..
16:37 < shak> This is due to a header mismatch between the upgraded kernel and the kernel that was originally installed on the machine. The fix is to make sure that /usr/src/linux points to the headers for the running kernel.
16:37 < shak> that's not too good, and that will be the cause :(
16:37 < yeti> :-/
16:37 < yeti> i dont even have usr/src/linux
16:38 < shak> neither do I
16:38 < shak> but I dont think I have the headers for 2.5.x
16:39 < yeti> look into /usr/include
16:40 < yeti> especially subdirs asm, linux, scsi
16:40 < yeti> are they links back to /usr/src/linux/include ?
16:40 < shak> lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root            8 Apr 22 12:05 asm -> asm-i386
16:41 < yeti> ls -ld /usr/src/linux/include/asm
16:41 < yeti> ls -ld /usr//include/asm
16:41 < shak> they're both just links to the asm-i386
16:41 < shak> in the same folder
16:42 < yeti> ok
16:42 < yeti> add -i to the ls command
16:42 < yeti> same inode?
16:42 < shak> nope
16:42 < shak> different inodes
16:42 < BB> gah someone remind me if i move to not move near a hospital, as the helicopters flying past the window keep scaring the life out of me
16:42 < yeti> smells like different headers
16:42 < shak> it does
16:43 < shak> so, I need to scuttle back to 2.4.x I feel
16:43 < yeti> will save a lot of time i think
16:43 < shak> yep
16:44 < shak> which means I might as well try using the skas patch too
16:44 < yeti> ;-)))))
16:44 < yeti> i dont touch ttmode any more...
16:45 < yeti> will your hosting stuff remain opensource?
16:45 < shak> yes
16:45 < shak> everything I write
16:46 < shak> will be opensource
16:46 < yeti> fine!
16:46 < shak> and freely available
16:46 < yeti> i have many complex ideas for uml@work
16:46 < yeti> ;-)
16:46 < shak> :)
16:46 < yeti> hosting only is one of them
16:47 < shak> well, ours is primarly aimed a virtual dedicated servers
16:47 < shak> and then at education
16:47 < shak> Linux tutorials
16:47 < shak> people learning linux in a "safe" environment
16:47 < yeti> ;-)
16:47 < yeti> i did some gentoo development and a long time on uml only ;-)
16:48 < shak> :D
16:48 < yeti> and 1.5 yrs ago i recompiled nearly all of woody inside an uml
16:48 < shak> hehe
16:49 < yeti> i was surprised how stable it was...
16:49 < shak> I need to make my own filesystem
16:49 < yeti> why?
16:49 < shak> so its got just what I need on it
16:49 < shak> instead of a full distro like this one
16:49 < yeti> here i type: uml rebuild
16:49 < yeti> ;-)
16:49 < shak> :)
16:50 < yeti> for the first tests grab some rootfs from uml.sf.net
16:50 < yeti> (uml not as abbrev)
16:50 < shak> I'm using ta slackware8.1 one at the moment
16:51 < yeti> i had debian, suse and gentoo in umls but i only made an environment to install debian automatically up to now
16:52 < shak> :)
16:52 < shak> Im just compiling 2.4.21 for the host kernel with the skas patch
16:53 < yeti> ftp://unimatrix-zero.borg-uv.org/pub/WilD/project/borg-20030422/usr/lib/borg/lib/uml/installer
16:53 < shak> connection refused
16:54 < yeti> moment....
16:54 < yeti> retry please
16:54 < yeti> maybe oftp needs a restart after my ip changed
16:54 < shak> hehe
16:55 < shak> worked tis time :
16:55 < shak> this time even 
16:55 < yeti> ok
16:55 < shak> nice
16:55 < yeti> the steps needed to get a debian up dontr differ much from other dists
16:55 < shak> that's a very clean script
16:55 < yeti> i am old
16:55 < yeti> i am lazy
16:56 < yeti> so i try to write understandable code.
16:56 < shak> heh
16:58 < yeti> btw: the installer is run inside uml when the host's root is /
16:58 < yeti> ;_)
16:58 < shak> :)
16:58 < yeti> the hosts / is taken as / for an uml but it is started with init=/.../installer
16:58 < shak> ah clever
16:58 < yeti> i needed that trick because normal users cannot do mkfs
16:59 < yeti> so my installer completely runs as user uml<somenr>
16:59 < yeti> drop me a line when you have a debian ;-)
17:00 < shak> hehe
17:00 < shak> I will do
17:00 < shak> right
17:00 < shak> need to reboot
17:00 < shak> for 2.4.21
17:00 < yeti> ;-)
17:00 < shak> thanks
17:01 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
17:01 -!- yeti [~yeti@p3EE2292C.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #uml [Client exiting]
17:03 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has joined #uml
17:03 < shak> hrm
17:03 < shak> that wasn't good
17:03 < shak> its still doesnt like the /dev/net/tun
17:03 < shak> cat: /dev/net/tun: File descriptor in bad state
17:04 < BB> erm mine says that if i try to cat it
17:04 < shak> but it works?
17:04 < BB> yup
17:05 < shak> what do I have to do with the tun interface before I use it in UML?
17:05 < shak> do I need to assign it an IP address?
17:05 < BB> i use a bridge so i do ifconfig bassi0 0.0.0.0 up # type thing
17:06 < shak> ok
17:07 < shak> right
17:07 < shak> I've given it an IP address
17:08 < shak> when I'm inside the UML
17:08 < shak> do I use the same IP that the tap0 has?
17:12 < BB> no idea, i use 0.0.0.0 outside and the real ip inside
17:13 -!- shak_ [~shak@80.4.84.78] has joined #uml
17:21 -!- shak [~shak@80.4.84.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 488 seconds]
17:25 -!- shak_ is now known as shak
17:25 < shak> hrm
17:26 < shak> is there a good way to limit CPU and Memory usage?
17:27 < alt> ulimit?
17:27 < BB> erm fairschedule patch would help with cpu if they are running as diff users, memory usage you tell it how much to use for the uml which comes from the mmap file. 
17:28 < shak> cool
17:28 < shak> sounds good
17:28 < alt> Checking for the skas3 patch in the host...found  <--- YAY!
17:29 < shak> hrm. I've got mine running fine
17:29 < shak> I want it to be higher powered though
17:29 < shak> its only got 1500 bogomips
17:29 < shak> where the host has much more
17:30 < alt> now why isn't the network working :(
17:31 < shak> I just did my network, one thing that I dont think it makes very clear is the need to use diffferent IPs for the one on the host that you've configured with ifconfig and the one in the UML
17:32 < alt> yeah
17:32 < alt> well, I'm getting this right now
17:32 < alt> tuntap_open_tramp failed - errno = 22
17:32 < shak> :o
17:33 < alt> argh
17:33 < alt> I forgot netlink device emulation in the host kernel
17:34  * alt beats head against brick wall
17:36 < alt> and this machine isn't particularily fast either
17:36 < alt> :\
17:45 < shak> hrm
17:45 < shak> I can't get two UML running with networking
17:45 < alt> grrrr
17:45 < alt> I can't get tun/tap working now :((
17:48 < shak> anyone run 2 UML on one machine before?
17:48 < BB> yup
17:48 < shak> how do you get the 2nd networking working?
17:48 < shak> I can't seem to do it
17:48 < shak> do I need another tap on the host?
17:48 < BB> as i said i use bridge, so i just add another tun device to the bridge i already have
17:49 < shak> ah yes
17:49 < shak> sorry
17:49 < shak> how do you add another tun?
17:49 < BB> tunctl
17:49 < shak> ah :)
17:49 < shak> thanks
18:39 -!- dpei002 [~dpei002@comlinux1.ccsu.auckland.ac.nz] has joined #uml
18:39 < dpei002> hi
18:41 < dpei002> does anyone use umlbuilder?
18:44 < dpei002> perhaps everyone is on the otherside of the world and therefore asleep  :-)
18:46 -!- avoozl is now known as avoozzzl
18:47 -!- Pahan [pahan@syr-24-59-98-110.twcny.rr.com] has joined #uml
18:51 < BB> I've used umlbuilder
18:57 < dpei002> aah hehe cool.. I am trying but it me messgae VFS: CAnnot open root device ubd7 or 62:70
18:57 < BB> at what point?
18:58 < dpei002> still in umlbuilder gui.. "Now doing the installation. This will take some time."
18:59 < BB> to be honest i have no idea, i've never used the gui part.. but i dont know at what stage it tries to do that
19:01 < dpei002> oh ok.. revalation:*AH there is a cli part to it* ill see if I get different results there
19:01 < BB> it might atleast tell you what stage its having problems at
19:02 < dpei002> I'm new to UML but from what i understand UML builder uses a UML to build the roots fs?
19:05 < BB> yeah i think so
19:06 < dpei002> i think I'll try a pre-built one first..
19:22 < dpei002> Thanks BB, I gtg, maybe see you round l8r..
19:22 < BB> k cyas
19:22 -!- dpei002 [~dpei002@comlinux1.ccsu.auckland.ac.nz] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting]
19:32 -!- yeti [~yeti@p3EE2292C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #uml
20:44 -!- DnsInfector [~DnsInfect@80.13.112.167] has joined #uml
20:57 < yeti> ping shak
20:58 < DnsInfector> you should have done "arp whoas shak" before
20:58 < yeti> why?
20:59 < DnsInfector> tcpdump joke
20:59 < yeti> oh... english is not m native tounge... and shak is still connected... so i was confused 
21:00 < DnsInfector> english neither my primary langage
21:00 < DnsInfector> s/langage/language/
21:00 < yeti> ;-)
21:00 < DnsInfector> i had wrote it in french....
21:01 < yeti> ahhhh
21:01 < yeti> i'll go on my balcony... and send a smile...
21:01 < yeti> i can see france from my balcony
21:01 < DnsInfector> :)
21:02 < yeti> colmar is near
21:02 < DnsInfector> colmar.... near paris ?
21:02  * DnsInfector is mappy.com
21:02 < yeti> near freiburg
21:02 < DnsInfector> ok deutchland
21:02 < DnsInfector> germany
21:03 < yeti> colmar/elsaß
21:03 < DnsInfector> I'm very far from here
21:03 < DnsInfector> i live in brittany
21:03 < david> hello
21:03 < yeti> hi!
21:04 < BB> hi david 
21:04 < DnsInfector> i still have my problem with ipv6
21:04 < DnsInfector> and UML
21:04 < DnsInfector> but a friend of mine
21:04 < DnsInfector> works with Francis Dupont a ipv6 guru
21:05 < DnsInfector> i'll have my answers tomorrow
21:05 < DnsInfector> IIRC he wrote the first ipv6 stacks
21:06 < david> BB: isn't iut 2am for you?
21:06 < DnsInfector> it's 3AM here
21:07 < david> DnsInfector: sleep, God damn it
21:07 < DnsInfector> i flush my mail and go to sleep(that's about 2 hours i'm thinking that)
21:07 < yeti> eeeeek
21:07 < yeti> sleeep
21:07 < yeti> i should ...
21:09 < BB> david yeah
21:09  * BB is still working on code to be ready for 1st April 2003 ;)
21:14  * DnsInfector is going to sleep
21:14 -!- DnsInfector [~DnsInfect@80.13.112.167] has left #uml [Client exiting]
21:30 -!- gump [gump@81.5.136.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:45  * alt is away: Every time you masturbate... God kills a kitten. (Please think of the kittens)
21:46 < BB> who needs kittens
21:58  * alt is back (gone 00:12:41)
21:59 < david> alt: that was quick ;-)
22:00 < alt> just went to refill my drink
22:00 < alt> well.. I've been "fighting" UML all day
22:00 < alt> and my problem was a path problem
22:00 < alt> uml_net is installed at /usr/lib/uml under Debian
22:01 < alt> once I symlinked it to /usr/bin everything worked
23:47 < Lathiat> Bing.
23:48 < alt> blong
23:49 < alt> hi Lathiat
23:49 < alt> uml rocks :)
23:50 < Lathiat> yes
23:50 < Lathiat> yes it does
23:51 < alt> I finally got it all figured out
23:51 < alt> now I know how to put it ontop of Debian :)
23:51 < alt> and they were right, the SKAS patch is way faster than TT
23:53 < alt> I want to build a server using UML for virtual servers... it seems appropriate to the task
23:53 < Lathiat> indeed
23:53 < Lathiat> and yes, skas kicks ass
23:54 < Lathiat> err
23:54 < Lathiat> is good :P
23:54 < alt> :)
23:54 < alt> hee hee
23:55 < alt> sorry.. I'm all giddy
23:56 < alt> I'm expecting my server in a few days and I want to get it up and running and at the end of the E10 in Vancouver :)
23:56 < alt> even if it is only a P233
23:56 < alt> P2-233, sorry
23:58 < alt> I should track down a P2-333 for it
23:58 < Lathiat> hehe
23:58 < Lathiat> i got a dual ppro 200 today
23:58 < Lathiat> its quite evil, the cpus sit on a little board which slots into a cpu slot and a pci slot... the same board has 2 ps/2 plugs o nit too
23:58 < Lathiat> its tripped out
23:58 < Lathiat> 8 ram slots :P
23:58 < alt> it's amazing what you can do with gear that everyone else is tossing if you run linux :)
23:58 < Lathiat> and an Anvil Stallion 16-port serial doovy davvy
23:58 < Lathiat> alt: yeh it is
23:58 < alt> I just picked up a Compaq 1200
23:59 < alt> P2-233, 9.1GB 10k SCSI UW
23:59 < alt> onboard 10/100
23:59 < Lathiat> im on a p166 here running blackbox in my rom ;)
23:59 < alt> rom?
23:59 < Lathiat> room
23:59 < alt> room
23:59 < alt> ah
--- Log closed Mon Jun 16 00:00:00 2003