--- Day changed

--- Log opened Tue May 10 23:59:02 2005
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01:14 < Squink> I know this is completely offtopic, but this was too cute, so i had to take a photo ;) http://www.523.org.uk/~squink/images/kittens.jpg
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03:40 < knewt> ugh. what is this, morning? nasty nasty thing.
04:00  * Squink stares at 1am
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04:50 < mael> hi rusty 
04:50 < mael> knewt:  you're already up?
04:54 < knewt> had a dentist appointment this morning
04:54 < knewt> 9am :(
04:55 < mael> eurk
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05:09 < Sting> In xen-unstable and xen-testing , there is linux-2.6.11-xen-sparse folder (with the following folders:arch,drivers,include,kernel and mm)
05:09 < Sting> The linux-2.6.11-xen0 folders have some files which are symlinks to 
05:09 < Sting> files from the sparse folder ; like linux-2.6.11-xen0/drivers/xen/evtchn/evtchn.c
05:09 < Sting>  and many more.The same is for linux-2.6.11-xenU. 
05:09 < Sting>  I want to understand the reasoning behind the "sparse" folder. 
05:09 < Sting>  Is it sole and only purpose is to be a common part of the kernel which 
05:10 < Sting>  both the xen0 and xenU use ? (would it not be proper to call it "common"
05:10 < Sting> instead of "sparse"? ) Is there any other purpose for that sparse tree?
05:12 < knewt> instead of having a patch to the kernel tree, there is the sparse tree, which is symlinked into the kernel source by mkbuildtree
05:15 < Sting> thnks
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05:58 < sleon> hi
05:58 < sleon> where to check why the dom0 can't find floppy controller?
05:58 < sleon> Floppy drive(s): fd0 is 1.44M
05:58 < sleon> floppy0: no floppy controllers found
06:04 < knewt> which version of xen are you using? there was a small bug in the floppy support at one point if i recall correctly
06:06 < sleon> knewt, this is the stable one
06:07 < knewt> the latest release of?
06:07 < sleon> yes
06:07 < sleon> where can i see the version of it?
06:08 < sleon>  2.0.5 
06:08 < sleon> from the changelog
06:12 < knewt> ok, checking the history it was fixed about a week after 2.0.5 was tagged, so you'll need to use -testing for now
06:15 < sleon> oh ok thx
06:17 < knewt> it's worth it anyway for some block-device speed improvements
06:18 < sleon> hmm ok
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12:14 < mael> hi aliguori 
12:14 < aliguori> howdy mael
12:14 < mael> fine
12:14 < mael> hum
12:15 < mael> I couldn't find the ulibc/busybox howto lately ;)
12:15 < aliguori> lol
12:15 < aliguori> ok, ya got me, i'm gonna do it right now :-)
12:16 < mael> did you used the buildroot package?
12:16 < mael> I was trying to write it myself, but it was more complicated than I expected :)
12:17 < aliguori> yes
12:17 < aliguori> i did
12:17 < aliguori> i didn't think it was that bad at all
12:17 < mael> ok then
12:17 < aliguori> i built uclibc, then i built busybox (statically compiled against uclibc)
12:17 < mael> ok
12:17 < aliguori> then i used the buildroot to build vm-tools
12:17 < mael> you use i386 as a target?
12:17 < aliguori> actually, that's the howto right there :-)
12:17 < aliguori> yes
12:17 < aliguori> where did you run into a problem?
12:18 < mael> well I was doing separate build
12:18 < mael> and this is quite a mess
12:20 < mael> aliguori:  even if you only have time for a quick guide, I can spend a little time trying it and correcting what I find missing
12:21 < mael> so a draft might be enough
12:21 < aliguori> ok
12:21 < aliguori> i'm going to link it off of HowTos
12:21 < mael> if you get little time to help on specific problem I meet
12:23 < aliguori> this wiki syntax is a little odd
12:23 < mael> hehe
12:23 < mael> good luck
12:23 < mael> it's time for me to leave for now :)
12:32 < knewt> cool, Xen is down for inclusion into Breezy
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13:56 < murble> has anyone had problems with domU domains running out of entropy in /dev/random?
13:57 < hollis> hmm, how does a domU obtain entropy at all?
13:58 < muli_> hollis, just a guess, but the virtual block and network drivers could feed the entropy pool
13:59 < hollis> they could, but I'm not sure how "entropic" those really are. after all, domains are scheduled by timeslice, no...?
14:00 < hollis> this is why I didn't add the "random" flag to the pSeries virtual serial driver; there are many layers of software involved, and I don't understand them enough to say it's a valid source of entropy or not
14:01 < muli_> well, it's not interesting if Xen or dom0 could affect the entropy collection
14:01 < muli_> but if some otehr domU could affect it (by its own scheduling?), that would be pretty horrible
14:02 < hollis> if an outsider can guess that a domU will obtain entropy in increments of 10ms, that's not so good
14:02 < muli_> yeah, but I think the entropy collection is a lot more fine grained than 10ms
14:05 < hollis> I haven't looked at xen's virtual drivers enough to say. if they truly do trigger interrupts at "random" times then that's cool. if, on the other hand, blocks are queued up in a ring buffer while the domU is scheduled out, then an irq is delivered when the domU is scheduled back in, then that's timeslice granularity
14:05 < knewt> you could write a pass-through /dev/random driver, but then a single domU could drain the entropy pool which wouldn't be good
14:06 < hollis> sounds like there's a market for those hardware entropy-generators :)
14:07 < muli_> or to those websites selling really random numbers :-)
14:08 < knewt> DEAR FRIEND, I AM FROM NIGERIA AND HAVE MANY GOOD RANDOM NUMBERS FOR SALE
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14:08 < Squink> lol
14:08 < murble> hollis: there is somthing on my machines mother board that claims to do that.
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14:10 < aliguori> is anyone running today or yesterday's xen-unstable?
14:11 < rharper> aliguori: I ran yesterday's on x86 smp, havent compiled/tested todays
14:13 < aliguori> let me try again disabling acpi
14:13 < hollis> murble: I've heard recent VIA processors have that builtin
14:13 < hollis> murble: I didn't know you could get it on the motherboard as well
14:15 < murble> hollis: see CONFIG_HW_RANDOM
14:19 < hollis> cool. so I guess your question then is how to get that into domU instead of just dom0
14:19 < hollis> and I don't know the answer :)
14:24 < murble> the entropy gathering daemon, http://egd.sourceforge.net/ can apparently provide entropy over a tcp socket.
14:24 < murble> so you could run that in dom0 which would have access to the hw random generator.
14:24 < hollis> sounds good :)
14:25 < hollis> if you get it working, you could post some directions to the wiki
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14:36 < nextime> how can i debug a xenU domain that don't want start?
14:37 < nextime> with xm log i see only a "[2005-05-11 20:36:43 xend] DEBUG (XendDomain:244) XendDomain>reap> domain died name=virt7 id=9" line
14:40 < knewt> egd wouldn't be very useful on a server-type dom0. on a desktop dom0 environment it would be ok though
14:44 < hollis> knewt: why?
14:45 < hollis> oh, it doesn't do quite what was described :)
14:46 < knewt> [[ It is a regular user-space program that sits around, running programs like 'w' and 'last' and 'vmstat', collecting the randomness (or at least the unpredictability) inherent in the output of these system statistics programs when used on a reasonably busy system ]]
14:47 < knewt> not going to see much randomness on a server-type dom0 :)
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15:02 < nextime> oh fuck, i've found the problem, domU kernel compiled for the wrong processor
15:02 < nextime> :)
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15:21 < demon> is there anyone that has a repository of debian packages with xend, xm, and the custom built libc to make TLS/NPTL work right in xen?
15:21 < demon> I just built my own libc packages yesterday, and they work fine... but I'd rather not have to worry about it every time a new package pops up
15:21 < knewt> it's not just libc you'll need to build specially i believe
15:22 < demon> ... ?
15:22 < demon> really?
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15:22 < knewt> i think things that use tls have to have a special gcc flag added when being built
15:22 < demon> I thought from looking at the xen wiki that that's all that was needed
15:22 < demon> maybe I misunderstood
15:23 < riel> knewt: Fedora now has a glibc-xen
15:23 < knewt> i'm busy building pugs right now (it totally swaps out firefox when i'm doing so), but when i'm finished i'll check the archives
15:23 < riel> knewt: FC4 test3
15:23 < murble> knewt: you could hack it to get its entropy from /dev/random?
15:37 < movement> riel: do those changes actually noticably hurt?
15:37 < movement> (non-xen I mean)
15:41 < riel> movement: I don't know
15:41 < riel> movement: and I suspect they don't ;)
15:42 < movement> ok
15:42 < riel> but if the glibc folks prefer a separate glibc-xen that's fine with me - they maintain the RPM, after all ;)
15:42 < movement> sure.
15:44 < knewt> ok, found it. glibc is the thing that most commonly does thread-local-storage stuff, but anything can do so if it so wishes. if such a program runs then it'll trigger the warning message. to stop that the program needs to be compiled with -mno-tls-direct-seg-refs
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15:45 < demon> is there any performance loss from using the little xen-specific patch against glibc on a non-Xen Linux?
15:50 < movement> see a couple of lines above for the very same question :)
15:51 < movement> demon: I really can't imagine it hurting that much, but I suppose it's feasible
15:51 < movement> e.g. if the change means an extra register spilled in a very commonly called function
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19:55 < soffi> 'lo dudes
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23:00 < crisen> is there a stable enough version of xen for kernel 2.6.11?
23:21 < crisen> ill grab whats in bk and see how things roll
--- Log closed Wed May 11 23:59:00 2005