--- Day changed --- Log opened Sun May 15 23:59:01 2005 23:59 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:11 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has joined #xen 00:27 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:32 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has joined #xen 01:02 -!- lilo_ is now known as lilo 01:12 -!- muli [~muli@nesher3.haifa.il.ibm.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:45 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:51 -!- rusty [~rusty@bh02i525f01.au.ibm.com] has joined #xen 02:00 -!- Squink [~purple@S010600131077a67e.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15 -!- muli [~muli@nesher3.haifa.il.ibm.com] has joined #xen 02:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@bh02i525f01.au.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 02:21 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has joined #xen 02:48 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:56 -!- muli [~muli@nesher3.haifa.il.ibm.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has joined #xen 03:30 -!- wenchien [~wenchien@221-169-69-23.adsl.static.seed.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:31 -!- nub [~nub@lez.mag.keio.ac.jp] has joined #xen 04:38 -!- athomas [~athomas@ppp-0-106.lond-a-1.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #xen 04:43 < mael> hi 05:19 -!- nub [~nub@lez.mag.keio.ac.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16 -!- jesse_ [~wenchien@221-169-69-23.adsl.static.seed.net.tw] has joined #xen 06:17 -!- jesse_ is now known as wenchien 07:01 -!- crisen [~crisen@spank.terdmonk.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:27 -!- riel [~riel@imladris.surriel.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:34 -!- riel [~riel@imladris.surriel.com] has joined #xen 08:01 -!- DEac- [~deac@xdsl-213-196-202-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:15 -!- DEac- [~deac@xdsl-213-168-105-91.netcologne.de] has joined #xen 08:31 -!- cfreak [cfreak@dsl-084-056-105-030.arcor-ip.net] has joined #xen 08:46 -!- riel is now known as surriel 09:07 -!- Tv [~Tv@hq.inoi.fi] has joined #xen 09:11 -!- jimix [~jimix@yktgi01e0-s4.watson.ibm.com] has joined #xen 09:21 -!- jimix [~jimix@yktgi01e0-s4.watson.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: jimix] 09:21 -!- jimix [~jimix@yktgi01e0-s4.watson.ibm.com] has joined #xen 09:22 -!- jimix [~jimix@yktgi01e0-s4.watson.ibm.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38 -!- unriel is now known as riel 09:41 -!- jimix [~jimix@yktgi01e0-s4.watson.ibm.com] has joined #xen 09:57 -!- rharper [~rharper@pixpat.austin.ibm.com] has joined #xen 10:08 -!- hollis [~hollis@pixpat.austin.ibm.com] has joined #xen 10:58 -!- tessier [~treed@203.210.212.17] has joined #xen 11:00 -!- Robot101 [robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk] has quit [Quit: kthxbye] 11:43 -!- hbaum [~hbaum@bi01p1.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #xen 11:56 -!- aliguori [~anthony@pixpat.austin.ibm.com] has joined #xen 12:12 -!- bunoc [~bun@YahooBB219206220072.bbtec.net] has joined #xen 12:13 < bunoc> hello. i am using bk to pull the -unstable. in bk, is there anyway to find exactly when a specific file was updated in the repo? 12:14 < bunoc> (i am not used to bk) 12:14 < hollis> bk revtool 12:16 < bunoc> hollis: great, but it seems that only shows the day that file is committed, not when it was push in? 12:17 < bunoc> how can we know when that file was pushed in? 12:18 < hollis> what do you mean "pushed in"? you mean when that changeset made it to the "main" repository? 12:18 < hollis> I mean, it was committed when it was committed 12:18 < knewt> i'd guess he means when it got merged into the -unstable repo, yep 12:19 < bunoc> knewt: yes, that is it 12:19 < bunoc> i look at the changeset. it seems that the code are pulled from many trees 12:20 < bunoc> but that only shows the time when it was first committed in the original tree, not when it was merged into -unstable? 12:21 < bunoc> it seems there is no such information stored in the tree ? 12:21 < Tv> not really, no 12:21 < Tv> what you can do is look for a merge changeset 12:21 < tessier> Should I be running stable or unstable if I actually want to try to use Xen to get some work done? 12:22 < Tv> but clean merges don't generate those 12:22 < bunoc> Tv: where is the merge changeset? 12:22 < bunoc> at xen.bkbits.net? 12:22 < Tv> tags will tell the last release before it got merged 12:22 < bunoc> i looked, but the information is not detailed enough 12:22 < tessier> I know traditional wisdom says stable but sometimes with open source projects that advance very rapidly the latest cvs/svn/bk pull can be more stable than the latest "stable" build. 12:22 < Tv> bunoc: where the rest the changesets are.. 12:22 < hollis> tessier: use stable 12:22 < knewt> bunoc: right now -testing is the best bet for stability 12:23 < hollis> unstable doesn't even compile quite frequently 12:23 < bunoc> knewt: i am not askng about stable ;). that is tessier asked 12:23 < tessier> hollis: ok 12:24 < knewt> bunoc: whoops. not paying enough attention *g* 12:24 < bunoc> i am making a file-based image. is there anyway to make partitions into a file? 12:24 < bunoc> normally we just mkfs , then there is no partitions inside that file 12:25 < Tv> bunoc: so use multiple files 12:25 -!- matta [~matta@69.93.28.254] has joined #xen 12:25 < bunoc> Tv: yes, just wonder if it is possible to do that or not 12:25 -!- stekloff [~stekloff@bi01p1.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #xen 12:25 < Tv> not just possible, better than trying to kludge partitions in loopbacks 12:25 < Tv> though lvm is the best thing since sliced bread 12:26 < knewt> bunoc: which file were you looking at? just want to try something 12:26 < Tv> I configured one box so it can boot either with xen, with the "main" host in domU, or the main host natively. 12:26 < Tv> That rocks. 12:27 < bunoc> knewt: for example Config.mk 12:28 < bunoc> Tv: what is kludge partition? 12:29 < Tv> bunoc: verb, not noun 12:29 < Tv> bunoc: also, dict(1) 12:29 < hollis> bunoc: it's a real PITA to loopback mount a filesystem from a partition in a file 12:30 < bunoc> kludge? never seen that word before. also cannot look it up in my dictionary 12:31 < bunoc> (sorry, english is not my native language) 12:32 < knewt> bunoc: ok, you can use the browser on xen.bkbits.net. find the file you want to look at and you can see which changesets the file has been involved in on -unstable 12:37 < bunoc> knewt: yes that works, but same result as "bk revtool " 12:38 < knewt> bunoc: you're looking at the changeset list, not the revision list, for the file, right? they give different info 12:39 < bunoc> knewt: sorry if i dont express my idea clearly. i am not used to bk. my question is: when a specific file was pushed in -unstable. 12:43 < knewt> for instance, for Config.mk: 12:43 < knewt> revisions: 1.1 / 20 march -- 1.2 / 2 april -- 1.3 / 2 april -- 1.4 / 15 april 12:43 < knewt> changesets: 1.1236.1.105 / 22 march -- 1.236.1.199 / 2 april -- 1.236.1.200 / 2 april -- 1.1305 / 15 april 12:44 < knewt> so the first revision was made on the 20th march, but didn't make it to -unstable until 2 days later 12:44 < knewt> i think that's right, anyway 12:50 -!- bunoc2 [~bunoc2@YahooBB219206220072.bbtec.net] has joined #xen 12:51 < bunoc2> knewt, how can we know that 1.1 rev corresponds to cset 1.1236.1.205? 12:52 < bunoc2> i dont understand where this number 1.1236.1.205 is from? how bk created that number? 12:55 -!- athomas [~athomas@ppp-0-106.lond-a-1.access.uk.tiscali.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:58 -!- bunoc [~bun@YahooBB219206220072.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:23 -!- tierra [~tierra@dsl093-225-126.slc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #xen 13:47 < hollis> bunoc2: that's the changeset number. bk invented it 13:47 < hollis> bunoc2: you can use bk r2c and c2r to convert between the two 14:03 -!- aliguori [~anthony@pixpat.austin.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:04 -!- aliguori [~anthony@pixpat.austin.ibm.com] has joined #xen 14:20 < tessier> It is possible to boot the xen hypervisor and domain0 under vmware? 14:28 < riel> it should be, in theory 14:28 < riel> but it can't be efficient 14:28 < riel> vmware wants the same address space as the xen hypervisor ;) 14:29 < yosh> tessier: are you then going to run uml in domainU ? 14:29 < yosh> ;) 14:29 < tessier> A friend of mine said he booted xen under vmware. 14:29 < tessier> I didn't believe him. 14:29 < tessier> I thought it would choke for sure as soon as xen tried to grab ring 0 14:30 < tessier> Since vmware already had it. 14:30 < aliguori> tessier: no, vmware emulates a ring 0 14:30 < aliguori> that should be fine 14:30 < tessier> ah 14:30 < aliguori> i'd imagine the oddness would be in xen using ring 1 14:30 < tessier> That actually makes sense now. 14:31 < aliguori> vmware might support ring 1 operations but i imagine it's not tested all that well 14:31 < aliguori> i can't think of another os that uses ring 1 14:34 < hollis> I hear OS/2 did :) 14:34 < aliguori> hehe, why doesn't that surprise me :-) 14:34 < aliguori> perhaps that's why it's so hard to get OS/2 running in vmware or virtualpc 14:36 -!- mael_ [~Mael@kali.tirnamban.org] has joined #xen 14:36 < tessier> I didn't realize PC's had 4 separate rings 14:36 < tessier> Is that an artifact of using two bits to describe them or something like that? 14:36 < mael_> hi aliguori 14:37 < aliguori> mael_: howdy 14:37 < hollis> tessier: x86 has four rings, and it's intentional 14:37 < mael_> are you over-loaded today? 14:38 < aliguori> tessier: it's because it was required to compete for DoD contracts.. 14:38 < aliguori> mael_: what's up? 14:38 < tessier> Funny how nobody really uses all 4. 14:38 < hollis> aliguori: are you sure? I'm willing to bet there are many non-x86 processors in use at the DoD 14:38 -!- monrad [~monrad@0x535b06c0.ronxx3.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #xen 14:38 < tessier> hollis: All with at least 4 levels of protection? 14:39 < mael_> well I was about to compile uClibc and busybox 14:39 < hollis> tessier: no, I haven't heard of another processor with such a design (though I'm sure they exist) 14:39 < hollis> tessier: that's my point 14:39 < aliguori> hollis: the way it was explained to me, is that when they were designing the chip, one of the requirements was to be able to have processor separation so you could have like top secret, classified, confidential, and unclassified... 14:40 < aliguori> but there might be a considerable amount of myths about the 4 rings at this point :-) 14:40 < hollis> aliguori: yeah, I don't buy it 14:40 < aliguori> this was from one of the intel guys when he came to lecture in one of my classes (actually, i think it was Arun..) 14:40 < hollis> hm, ok... 14:41 < tessier> Was he the Lord Of The Rings? 14:42 < aliguori> we also read a paper explaining why intel uses little endian :-) 14:42 * hollis winces 14:42 < hollis> aliguori: and what did that say? 14:42 < aliguori> it goes way back to the days when intel made calculuator processors 14:42 < mael_> has any of you a practical experience of virtuozzo? 14:42 < mael_> this stuff seems impressive 14:42 < aliguori> using that format happened to save some wiring for doing adds or something 14:43 < hollis> aliguori: one of the Research guys was there when IBM/Intel were designing the PC, and he blames himself for not talking them out of it 14:43 < hollis> he said it was simply due to bit numbering. calculators were not mentioned ;) 14:49 < aliguori> ah, here's the paper 14:49 < aliguori> http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber/Microcomputer%5Finvention.htm 14:49 < aliguori> it was the JUMP instruction, not the add 14:51 < hollis> ha, even he says "regrettably" :) 14:51 < aliguori> yeah, that's what's always stuck out to me about that paper :-) 14:51 < aliguori> it's an interesting paper... 14:51 * hollis nominates "The lack of [endian] standardization has been a problem in the industry." for an Understatement Award 14:51 < aliguori> hehe 14:52 < aliguori> it really surprised me that the microprocessor pretty much grew out of the fact that intel was a memory company and wanted to expand 14:52 < aliguori> it was sort of like dumb luck 15:04 -!- niv [~nivedita@bi01p1.co.us.ibm.com] has joined #xen 15:05 * riel suspects that having 4 security rings is pretty common 15:05 < riel> after all, you need 4 rings to run VMS 15:06 < riel> and VMS has run on a few different architectures ... 15:12 < murble> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa/win 14 15:13 < murble> bugger 15:23 < tessier> aliguori: MS too was in the right place at the right time... 15:24 < tessier> riel: What architectures does vms run on besides Alpha and whatever the original processor was? 15:24 < hollis> apparently Itanium 15:25 < hollis> oops I meant "Itanic" ;) 15:27 < tessier> Itanic is definitely the common name for it. You can't read a trade rag about it without them cracking that one. 15:27 < tessier> I have never actually seen a box running an Itanium nor have I seen Itanium chips advertised anywhere I shop. 15:27 < tessier> Itanium seems to be Unobtanium 15:28 < riel> tessier: VAX, MIPS, Alpha and Itanic 15:28 < tessier> I am amazed a company can survive such a failure. But I guess Intel is a pretty darn big company. 15:28 < riel> Intel will survive it just fine, I'm more worried about HP 15:28 < tessier> MIPS and Itanic eh? Didn't know that. What processor did VAX originally run on? Was it a 68k? 15:29 < riel> tessier: VAX is a processor 15:29 < riel> it is _the_ original 32 bit processor ;) 15:29 < mael_> tessier: well just because you don't find itanium at next door reseller doesn't mean it has no market 15:29 < tessier> Oh, it is a processor itself. I see. I was thinking 68k didn't have protection levels. So that makes sense. 15:29 < mael_> thought it seems a pretty small one for sure :) 15:29 < tessier> mael: True but that means it is a very niche market which means very expensive chip which traditionally don't do well for the manufacturer. 15:30 < mael_> hmm I don't like this kind of reasonning very much 15:30 < tessier> I missed the whole vax generation by a few years. I had a couple of VMS accounts but never really learned how to use them. Never had administrator rights on a vax/vms box. 15:30 < tessier> Once I found un*x/Linux VMS seemed to painful anyhow so I never looked back. 15:30 < mael_> this is the kind of stuff that can lead to wintel domination without choice 15:31 < mael_> (MH2C) 15:34 < riel> HP appears to still have 95% of the Itanium market, btw 15:36 * tessier is amazed that we finally have dual core chips 16:18 < mael_> aliguori: yet another compile error 16:18 < mael_> (and I don't use the daily snapshots) 16:18 < aliguori> mael_: compiling what? 16:18 < mael_> uClibC/busybox using buildroot 16:19 < aliguori> oh, that's odd 16:19 < aliguori> what compiler? 16:19 < mael_> I'm not yet able to compile vmtools 16:19 < aliguori> well.... 16:19 < aliguori> vm-tools is a problem right now 16:19 < aliguori> xen-unstable has gone through massive changes 16:19 < mael_> hehe I guess you're in trouble adapting it to rusty changes 16:19 < aliguori> no 16:19 < aliguori> it's not rusty's changes actually 16:19 < mael_> gcc 3.3.5 16:20 < aliguori> but mike wray has a different tree 16:20 < mael_> ah? 16:20 < aliguori> that we're currently working out of 16:20 < aliguori> yeah, it's linked off the wiki 16:20 < aliguori> and i haven't updated a public version of vm-tools for it.. we're in a bit of a pickle 16:20 < aliguori> it'll probably stay that way until 3.0-testing is released 16:20 < aliguori> b/c things are just changing too rapidly 16:21 < mael_> yeah I do think this is a general xen problem 16:21 * mael_ feels being on a moving ground all the time 16:21 < mael_> every time I think I grasp so idea, it's obsolete 16:21 < mael_> -so+some 16:25 -!- knewt [~jmb@zeus.pimb.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25 -!- knewt [~jmb@zeus.pimb.org] has joined #xen 16:31 -!- yarihm [~yarihm@217-162-114-216.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:32 < riel> ahhh, Makefile is screwed up in -rc4 16:32 < riel> that's why things weren't compiling any more 16:33 < mael_> :) 16:33 < mael_> that's a good news :) 16:33 < mael_> you're not the one responsible for that mess, are you? 16:34 < riel> nope 16:34 < riel> just ran into it 16:34 < mael_> then that's a good news :) 16:34 < mael_> now you can do something else while it's fixed :) 16:34 < mael_> s/while/until/ 16:36 < riel> no, FC4 freeze is soon ;) 16:36 < riel> I fixed it instead 16:36 < mael_> hehe 16:45 < mael_> riel: will Xen be integrated in FC4? 16:46 < mael_> I mean officialy 16:46 < mael_> +l 16:47 < riel> what do you mean by "officially" ? 16:48 < mael_> Will Xen packages be integrated in FC4 official package pool? 16:48 < mael_> (or what is equivalent to Debian package pool in FC world) 16:49 < mael_> I know official support is not a meaningful stuff for FC as this is mainly the "test" distro for RH 16:50 < mael_> but if the package is "mainstream" in FC distro and FC kernels supporting Xen are realeased, I guess this is an official package 16:54 -!- jimix [~jimix@yktgi01e0-s4.watson.ibm.com] has left #xen [] 16:55 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:58 < riel> mael: they already are 16:58 < riel> mael: they're in the FC4 test releases and will be in the FC4 final release 16:58 < mael_> ok 16:59 < mael_> which version of Xen? 2.0.5? or the unstable branch? 17:03 < riel> unstable 17:04 < riel> somebody needs to test it 17:04 < mael_> yeah that's right 17:04 < riel> besides, it seems to work pretty well most of the time 17:04 < riel> and things like SMP guests and VT support are nice to have 17:04 < matta> riel: you get anywhere with the bug I sent you? 17:05 < riel> matta: I'll upgrade to a newer upstream Xen to see if that makes it go away 17:05 < mael_> and it changes so much that an average user just like me can't follow/solve the problems 17:05 < matta> slab errors 17:05 < riel> matta: but I'm not actively debugging Xen ATM 17:05 < matta> oh, just packaging 17:05 * riel is preparing for the Red Hat Summit, and doing some other stuff 17:05 < matta> and accepting the reports 17:06 < riel> besides, if when I do Xen development, I look at bugzilla.xensource.com first ;) 17:06 < riel> that's where the code is maintained, after all - so that's where I try to help out 17:06 < matta> i'm pretty sure it was a FC4 kernel problem anyway 17:06 < riel> matta: quite probable ;) 17:06 < riel> oh wait, that happened with the non-xen kernel too? 17:06 < riel> e100 driver ? 17:07 < matta> I noted I had gotten the same errors under stock FC4 kernel but someone still moved the bug to you because it was a -xen0 kernel 17:07 < matta> yes actually 17:07 < riel> ahhhh right 17:07 < matta> was there a problem that was fixed recently? 17:07 < matta> actually, might be e1000 17:08 < matta> it is e1000 17:08 < riel> I'm not seeing changes to that driver in the diff between -rc3 and -rc4 17:08 < matta> eh, was worth a shot 17:08 < matta> for now i'm back at FC3 and running stable :) 17:09 < riel> can't blame you 17:09 < riel> if the bug also happens with the upstream kernel, lkml may be worth a try, or bugzilla.kernel.org 17:09 * riel goes back to some non-code parts of his job 17:09 < matta> it works fine with -testing and 2.6.11 17:09 < matta> could be the .12 patch to the FC4 kernel 17:10 < matta> or any other of the numerous patches 17:10 < riel> yeah, the e1000 driver changed in -rc4 17:17 -!- Tv [~Tv@hq.inoi.fi] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 17:18 * riel reassigns the bug to a driver guy and hopes for the best ;) 17:18 < matta> heh 17:18 < matta> i bet that is it 17:28 -!- riel is now known as unriel 17:29 -!- hollis [~hollis@pixpat.austin.ibm.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:56 -!- mael_ [~Mael@kali.tirnamban.org] has quit [Quit: good night] 17:56 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has joined #xen 18:03 -!- monski [~monrad@213083190130.sonofon.dk] has joined #xen 18:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@bh02i525f01.au.ibm.com] has joined #xen 18:07 -!- crisen [~crisen@spank.terdmonk.com] has joined #xen 18:08 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping 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[~soffi@proxy.du.vdsl.is] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:22 < bunoc2> |||||||\ 21:26 < mikegrb> /||||||| 21:33 < rusty> mikegrb: I think ||||||\_ is next, actually. 21:33 < mikegrb> oh :< 21:33 < bunoc2> eh sorry, my cat jumpped to the keyboard :) 21:35 < rusty> bunoc2: Oh, I assumed this was Ascii dominos. 21:35 < bunoc2> no, it wasnt :) 21:41 -!- soffi [~soffi@proxy.du.vdsl.is] has joined #xen 21:45 -!- soffi [~soffi@proxy.du.vdsl.is] has quit [Quit: ] 21:51 -!- soffi [~soffi@proxy.du.vdsl.is] has joined #xen 21:51 -!- soffi [~soffi@proxy.du.vdsl.is] has quit [Quit: ] 21:51 -!- soffi [~soffi@proxy.du.vdsl.is] has joined #xen 21:54 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:20 -!- Pete [~Pete@pcp01685957pcs.wchstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #xen 22:30 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has joined #xen 22:33 < surriel> sweet, akpm took the Makefile fix into -mm 22:42 -!- b2s [~b2s@66.111.53.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:02 -!- 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