--- Day changed

--- Log opened Mon May 16 23:59:02 2005
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01:59 < enum> yo, if I want to install xen, I have to install a complete x86 system correct?  I cannot install an x86_64 system, and then run xen..
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04:19 < mael> hi
04:21 < soffi> 'sup mael 
04:21 < mael> hey! soffi !
04:21 < soffi> nobody has showed up yet and I'm blasting Snoop Dogg ;)
04:22 < mael> you were not supposed to be in hollidays?
04:22 < soffi> they're over
04:22 < soffi> sunday and monday was some super-holy-christian stuff
04:22 < soffi> s/was/were/g
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04:57 < mael> soffi:  and how is you filer cluster doing?
04:58 < soffi> not so good
04:59 < mael> mmh is it working?
04:59 < soffi> df -h
05:00 < soffi> nope
05:00 < soffi> :)
05:00 < soffi> but it will soon
05:00 < soffi> when I get around to finish it
05:01 < soffi> basically two coda servers replicating and then coda clients for the masses
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05:27 < nub2> i modified a file, then tried to get the diff using bk. the command i used is "bk -r diffs -u"
05:27 < nub2> but it doesnt see a file i just modifed. why?
05:27 < nub2> do i need to do anything before getting a diff?
05:32 < Squink> anyone had any forking problems with postfix in xenU ?
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06:16 < murble> quicky, what do i have to do to make vbd let me export a device more than once?
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11:09 < mael> hi aliguori 
11:09 < mael> its seems my compilation worked yesterday and I got a tar.gz to try now
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11:17 < tessier> mael: Where is your nick from?
11:18 < mael> tessier:  from Brittany
11:18 < tessier> What is Brittany?
11:19 < mael> it is a Celtic area in the west of France
11:19 < tessier> Ah. What does your nick mean?
11:19 < mael> Breton language has the same roots than Welch
11:20 < mael> it means "prince"
11:20 < tessier> Ah. I used to use the nick Maelcum from the book Neuromancer. I was wondering if they were somehow related.
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11:20 < mael> but actually I got it as a nickname out of a stupid joke I made
11:21 < mael> I named a role playing game character "Maël Storm"
11:22 < mael> I you know the word "maelström" you'll probably understand
11:22 < tessier> yes
11:22 < mael> It happened that my fellow friends found it so stupid they nicknamed me out of it
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11:25 < mael> btw the name Maël also appear in Rice's books
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14:47 < aliguori> has anyone pulled BK recently?
14:47 < aliguori> I get a freebsd related breakage
14:47 < aliguori> make: *** No rule to make target `freebsd-5.3.tar.bz2', needed by `pristine-freebsd-5.3/.valid-pristine'.  Stop.
14:48 < aliguori> wow
14:48 < aliguori> it won't build at all
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15:00 < jonmason> aliguori: I was getting the same error
15:01 < jonmason> aliguori: before, I just ran "make" but to get it to work now, you must run "make world"
15:01 < aliguori> ugh
15:01 < aliguori> yeah, jerone just informed me
15:01 < aliguori> is this known on the list?
15:02 < jonmason> no, I just figgered it out myself (on Friday, I think)
15:02 < jonmason> it was the first install I did with 2.6.11.8
15:04 < jonmason> did xensource ever do the LXR style code viewer?
15:05 < murble> I seem to rember some jib about that on the list at one point.
15:05 < murble> http://lxr.xensource.com/
15:05 < jonmason> 'cause http://lxr2.linpro.no/source/ won't do an identifier search
15:06 < jonmason> murble: thanks, I'll give it a try
15:07 < jonmason> works! Thanks
15:14 < rharper> aliguori: jonmason: it is known on the list, and you can do a make dist (world does a clean first) I tried playing with it, but i figure that Christian can clean it up if enough folks complain 
15:21 < MarkW> there's lots of magic in the makefiles
15:21 < MarkW> it's probably something obscure and tiny that's broken.  I spent a while last week tracking down one bug but apparently there are others...
15:22 < jonmason> MarkW: there are bugs?  ;-)
15:22 < MarkW> jonmason: I know, it's hard to believe there would be weirdass bugs in a makefile :-)
15:23 < MarkW> Xen - making the incredible possible :-)
15:23 < aliguori> yeah, i was just looking into myself.. not for the faint hearted
15:23 < jonmason> someone probably added a space or something
15:24 < jonmason> one would think that after 30 years, we would have something better than "make"
15:24 < hollis> we do, but nobody uses them
15:24 < hollis> because they're afraid of offending people who only know make
15:25 < aliguori> you also have a boot strapping problem.
15:26 < hollis> how's that?
15:26 < aliguori> if you want to use something other than make, you have to pretty much distribute that tool
15:26 < aliguori> and that tool will probably end up using a makefile which is kind of odd
15:27 < hollis> any self-respecting build tool is self-hosting
15:27 < hollis> like you can bet arch isn't hosted in cvs ;)
15:27 < aliguori> hollis: how do you boot strap without distributing binaries?
15:27 < hollis> how do you boot strap make?
15:27 < hollis> you distribute binaries
15:28 < aliguori> hehe
15:28 < aliguori> that's true
15:28 < hollis> :)
15:28 < hollis> I think lots of Java stuff uses "ant" now
15:29 < MarkW> or you can install make by concentrating really hard on your PC until it appears on the drive
15:29 < hollis> but not being a Java person, I couldn't tell you about it :)
15:29 < MarkW> It takes a long time to install make that way...
15:29 < hollis> MarkW: that only works if you can remember the truth: there is no hard drive
15:29 < aliguori> MarkW: you could also use a really small magnet..
15:29 < MarkW> I've heard good things about ant.  Xen used to use it for some things.  Scons is also meant to be good.
15:30 < aliguori> hollis: ant uses xml build files... that's enough to keep me away from it
15:30 < aliguori> it's very extensible though
15:30 < MarkW> aliguori: I suppose you could use *actual* ants to carry the small magnets...
15:30 < aliguori> Jam is pretty nice
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15:30 < aliguori> MarkW: now that would be impressive!
15:31 < tessier> MarkW: ants can carry a magnet strong enough to crush them.
15:31 < hollis> jam, yeah I've seen that used
15:31 < tessier> So put glut a magnet to the back of an ant and let him walk towards another magnet...*snap*
15:31 < tessier> s/glut/glue/
15:31 < MarkW> tessier: good thing there aren't many magnets lying around in the wild, I suppose.
15:32 < grifferz> use this magnet: http://www.gaussboys.com/product_info.php?products_id=71
15:33 < MarkW> ooh, xen thinks my domain has only three pages of memory.  that can't be good!
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15:34 < jonmason> do magnetic fields give ants cancer?
15:35 < tessier> jonmason: Sounds like a potential class action suit.
15:35 < jonmason> tessier: I like the sound of that
15:36 < jonmason> every ant gets a penny and the lawyer gets 50%
15:37 < tessier> Are pennies ferrous?
15:37 < murble> tessier: old ones where
15:37 < tessier> The ant might prefer a cheque.
15:37 < murble> they've seen been debased.
15:37 < MarkW> hmmmm.  i'd like to see a load of ants carrying a cheque back to the nest...
15:37 < jonmason> '45 pennies were steel
15:38  * tessier wonders when we will get rid of dollar bills and instead get coins containing rfid like chips inside digitally signed by the US govt
15:38 < mikegrb> we already have dollar coins
15:38 < tessier> Coins are much easier to handle than paper.
15:38 < jonmason> implants, which have all of our money in them
15:39 < tessier> Yes, and everyone hates them because no machines will take them.
15:39 < mikegrb> and dollar bill production has been eased since the introduction of it
15:39 < tessier> And you pay with a dollar coin and people look at you funny
15:39 < mikegrb> actually I'd say close to 75% take them
15:39 < mikegrb> nah
15:39 < mikegrb> I always get a roll of dollar coins from the bank when I am in
15:39 < mikegrb> use them all the time
15:40 < tessier> interesting. I never see them except on the rare occasions I buy stamps from the machine at the post office which always gives change in dollar coins
15:40 < jonmason> exactly
15:40 < tessier> You put in a 20 and buy $10 worth of stamps and you get dollar coins
15:40 < jonmason> that is the only place that every gives them out
15:40 < MarkW> the best thing to do in the UK is to get a 5 pound coin... there aren't many of those about
15:40 < MarkW> because they generally cost more than 5 pounds to buy
15:40 < mikegrb> nah
15:41 < mikegrb> when I still worked retail, before I had a real job, my radio shack gave out dollar coins and no dollar bills
15:41 < murble> MarkW: or are given away free in comemorative cases, to try and get you to buy lots more to give away to all your friends and customers.
15:41 < mikegrb> they just aren't as common place
15:42 < murble> they also did the same with 2 pound coins before they were commonly minted.
15:42 < MarkW> murble: people look at you *real* funny if you try to pay with one
15:42 < MarkW> I wish they were easier to get hold of!
15:43 < jonmason> people usually think the $1 coins are quarters
15:43 < aliguori> someone recently got arrested for paying with all $2 bills...
15:43 < jonmason> so, I give them as tips at resturants.  that way the waitress gets all angry
15:43 < aliguori> the cashier assumed they were forged
15:44 < jonmason> aliguori: yeah, I heard about that
15:44 < jonmason> Best Buy, wasn't it
15:44 < murble> NI and Scottish bank notes are always fun to try and use in London.
15:44 < aliguori> jonmason: do you like having waitress' spit in your food? :-)
15:44 < aliguori> jonmason: yes, i believe so
15:44 < jonmason> aliguori: do you pay before or after you get the food?
15:44 < jonmason> murble: Scotland has different money than England?
15:45 < aliguori> jonmason: good point
15:45 < aliguori> uh oh, something's busted in the makefiles.. genkernel is naming the initrd "initrd-2.6.11.10$(XENGUEST)"
15:46 < jonmason> aliguori: genkernel....not you too
15:46 < aliguori> jonmason: i just use genkernel to make initrds..
15:47 < jonmason> aliguori: initrds aren't necessary
15:47 < aliguori> jonmason: they are if you're booting off of LVM :-)
15:47 < jonmason> you can't compile it into the kernel?
15:48 < grifferz> jonmason: no bank note is legal tender in UK except bank of england notes
15:49 < aliguori> jonmason: uh.. i don't think so because lvm is largely userspace if i understand it correctly
15:49 < grifferz> but various banks in scotland, ireland etc also produce bank notes which may be accepted in the rest of the UK
15:49 < jonmason> aliguori: ah, not an expert in LVM
15:49 < aliguori> neither am i
15:49 < jonmason> grifferz: ah
15:50 < aliguori> speaking of which, time to see if I can get the latest xen to boot.. brb
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15:50 < grifferz> scotland is interesting because it does not have the legal concept of a bank note..
15:50 < grifferz> the notes produced by those scottish banks are therefore not legal tender even in scotland :)
15:52 < jonmason> grifferz: then why produce them?
15:52 < grifferz> they are still usable to buy things, they just aren't bank notes
15:52 < MarkW> jonmason: "legal tender" strictly means you *have* to accept them as payment of debt
15:52 < grifferz> yeah
15:52 < grifferz> a trader cannot refuse legal tender
15:53 < rharper> for payment of debt or payment in general ?
15:53 < jonmason> ah, guess I should've take an econ course
15:53 < grifferz> for any payment
15:53 < rharper> really
15:53 < MarkW> actually, you can refuse legal tender if you're buying things (I think)
15:53 < rharper> thats what I would have thought
15:53 < grifferz> there is also an exception for coinage
15:53 < rharper> just cant refuse it for debt payment
15:53 < jonmason> MarkW: as change or what?
15:53 < MarkW> because you're not in debt.  AFAIK, it's just for buying things
15:53 < grifferz> you can refuse stupid numbers of pennies for example
15:53 < grifferz> like 10 million pennies
15:53 < MarkW> jonmason: eh?
15:54 < MarkW> oh, I see.
15:54 < jonmason> MarkW: how can you refuse it?
15:54 < MarkW> No, the seller can refuse legal tender and just not sell you the goods
15:54 < jonmason> ah
15:54 < MarkW> They don't have to accept it because it's not a payment of a debt
15:54 < murble> grifferz: will you please take this nice 50 pound note in exchange for this mars bar?
15:54 < jonmason> I will ;-)
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15:54 < MarkW> right, I'm really hungry so I'm going to go hunt and kill a pizza
15:55 < grifferz> ok it's only for debts
15:55 < MarkW> See yall
15:55 < grifferz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender
15:55 < rharper> MarkW: later
15:55 < MarkW> grifferz: that's where I learnt all my legal tender knowledge from :-)
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15:55 < murble> If you want somthing really useless, stuff 500 euro notes in your mattress.
15:55 < aliguori> no dice :-(
15:56 < jonmason> murble: euro is worth more than the dollar now
15:56 < murble> jonmason: ever tried spending a 200 euro note?
15:57 < jonmason> murble: never even seen a 200 euro note
15:57 < jonmason> you can probably buy a small spanish town with it
15:57 < murble> most shops here have signs saying the refused 200 and 500 euro notes.
15:57 < murble> anything > 50 doesn't seem to be very common, atleast not arround here.
15:58 < aliguori> so, a euro is worth more than a dollar right?
15:58 < aliguori> why would anyone carry a 200 or 500 euro note
15:58 < aliguori> that's nuts..  you have trouble using a 100 dollar bill here
15:59 < jonmason> aliguori: its always fun to use one, everyone thinks its fake and gets out that magic marker
15:59 < murble> aliguori: great for transfering money
15:59 < jonmason> murble: why not write a cheque?
15:59 < murble> jonmason: because it would that years to clear
16:00 < murble> an envelope with 500 euro notes and a walk across the street is much quicker and also useful when your rent is due that day.
16:01 < rharper> no checks?
16:01 < rharper> or cheque
16:01 < murble> rharper: actually i pay automatically by banktransfer but if i don't have the funds the transfer doesn't happen.
16:01 < aliguori> they can do electronic clearing now so that checks clear in about a day
16:02 < rharper> murble: so you might have it on hand, but not in the account, i see
16:02 < murble> rharper: or in savings account at another bank, if i screw up and don't invoice people in time.
16:02  * rharper wonders if his apt takes cash
16:03 < murble> rharper: you should be able to pay cash directly into landlords bank account.
16:03 < murble> I could live without a bank account here, it just won't be very convient.
16:04 < rharper> murble: I would think so, but there are some places will only take exact amounts, so if your bill was 91.96 and you show up with a 100.00, they may not have any change for you. 
16:06 < aliguori> i've stopped carrying cash.. i use a credit card for all small transactions and checks for large transactions.. am quite happy with it
16:07 < aliguori> xen seems to be borked for me.. for some reason, every once and a while my initrds break for about a week
16:07 < aliguori> i don't know what change causes it but it's happened 3-4 times now
16:07 < rharper> aliguori: prolly should get a non-initrd setup for those weeks
16:08 < aliguori> aliguori: i've got one..
16:08 < aliguori> but it's fedora-based
16:09 < rharper> is that bad?
16:11 < aliguori> just not my preferred environment
16:13 < jonmason> murble: but cash leaves no paper trail (ie, no proof that you paid)
16:14 < murble> jonmason: you get a receipt if you pay it into their bank account.
16:14 < murble> and no paper trail can also be a good thing.
16:15 < murble> if you don't like 3rd parties nosing in your affairs.
16:19 < jonmason> no one likes that
16:22 < murble> well the law has just changed in germany to let the finanzamt look at your bank accounts, somthing i'm not very happy about.
16:25 < jonmason> the feds can look at anything they want, they just have to get approval to use it in court
16:25 < jonmason> wire taps too
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21:14 < tim> would anyone hear know if the upcoming chips supporting hardware virtualization from intel and AMD will be priced similarly to current chips (aka under 300)
21:22 -!- services.oftc.net changed the topic of #xen to: Xen Homepage->  http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/index.html || Xen Wiki -> http://wiki.xensource.com || vm-tools : http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/aliguori/vm-tools/
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--- Log closed Tue May 17 23:59:00 2005