--- Day changed

--- Log opened Thu May 19 23:59:03 2005
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12:49 < cdub> pre-virtualiztion...hmm...
12:52 < riel> pre?  not para? ;)
12:52 < tessier> What is that?
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13:09 < aliguori> mmmm, pre-virtualization
13:10 < aliguori> tessier: basically, it uses a modified binutils to essentially implement software VT-x
13:10 < tessier> VT-x?
13:10 < aliguori> automatically identify problem instructions and call-out to the hypervisor.. but they've optimized it by having it call a domain-space routine that can do smart things like batch hypercalls
13:10 < aliguori> intel's virtualization extensions
13:11 < aliguori> a.k.a VMX or Vanderpool
13:11 < tessier> ah
13:11 < tessier> I can't wait. Running Windows on Linux....sweet.
13:12 < aliguori> heh, i think we're a bit away from that being all that practical
13:12 < hollis> yes, as soon as you rebuild Windows with virtualization annotations
13:12 < aliguori> there's a lot of difficult problems to solve although the recent VMX driver frontends are a good start
13:13 < aliguori> hollis: just ask bill, i'm sure he'll give you the source code...
13:14 < hollis> you mean http://l4ka.org/projects/virtualization/afterburn/ ?
13:14 < riel> the problem is, what does that do to kernel modules?
13:15 < riel> and debugging symbols ...
13:15 < hollis> riel: what are the problems?
13:15 < riel> if a user has a crash on a previrtualized system, is the crash dump going to be useful ?
13:16 < hollis> why not?
13:16 < riel> ie. are the symbols in the binary still where the debuginfo package says they were at build time ?
13:16 < hollis> the debuginfo package would be built by the same previrtualizing toolchain, no?
13:17 < aliguori> riel: I don't think symbol locations change at all
13:17 < aliguori> riel: instructions are padded with nops
13:18 < aliguori> so that when it's pre-virtualized, the only thing that changes is the nop-block
13:18 < aliguori> riel: i reckon they'll have to introduce an "afterburn" hypercall and annotate linux such that it pre-virtualizes modules at load-time
13:22 < riel> mmmm, interesting
13:24 < cdub> toolchain reliance sounds problematic
13:25 < hollis> cdub: we already rely on toolchains ;)
13:25 < cdub> i guess malicious code is still not at ring level 0
13:25 < cdub> hollis: hehe, true
13:25 < cdub> hollis: i meant to keep from emitting non-virtualizable insn's
13:27 < hollis> why is that problematic? seems safer to do in the toolchain than to do by hand -- you know you won't miss anything
13:30 < cdub> hollis: toolchain can't possibly stop malicious code
13:30 < hollis> cdub: you were just talking about non-virtualizable instructions
13:31 < hollis> the toolchain can certainly recognize those
13:31 < hollis> and the compiled code is running inside a domain anyways
13:32 < cdub> right, safety comes from ring > 0
13:32 < cdub> (for malicious code trying to use non-virt. insn)
13:33 < hollis> cdub: you should read the afterburner page...
13:33 < hollis> pure virtualization is slow
13:33 < hollis> para virtualization can require extensive code modifications
13:34 < hollis> pre virtualization solves both these problems
13:34 < cdub> hollis: so does not using x86
13:34 < hollis> it is still virtualization
13:34 < hollis> cdub: no, I don't think that's true
13:35 < cdub> hollis: how would it help zseries?
13:35 < hollis> cdub: I can speak for PowerPC... and if you look at the PPC Linux kernel, you will see extensive modifications to support various hypervisors
13:35 < hollis> the pure" alternative would be
13:35 < cdub> hollis: right, i assumed that was mostly for management
13:36 < hollis> management?
13:36 < cdub> (I hadn't looked at ppc)
13:36 < tessier> aliguori: We are a ways away from windows running under xen? I thought the tlb fixups of the new cpu's would make it cake?
13:37 < hollis> cdub: if you're interested, have a look at the "ppc_md" structure
13:37 < cdub> hollis: as in asking for resources, finding where to direct i/o, etc.
13:37 < hollis> cdub: you can see for example ppc_md.hpte_insert() being called in arch/ppc64/mm/init.c
13:38 < cdub> hollis: ah, indeed
13:38 < hollis> (hpte being "hash page table entry", i.e. creating an MMU translation)
13:38 < hollis> and that function pointer is chosen depending on the environment (pSeries hypervisor, legacy iSeries hypervisor, bare metal)
13:39 < hollis> the pure virtualization alternative of course would be to try to modify the hash table, trap into hypervisor, and figure it out from there
13:39 < hollis> but that's slower than just asking the hypervisor politely in the first place
13:40 < cdub> hollis: ok, i see
13:41 < hollis> so with previrtualization, we would make a little note in the code when inserting an HPTE, and let the toolchain+init code fix it up for us
13:41 < hollis> without having to explicitly call a function pointer
13:41 < hollis> (and all the abstraction that entails)
13:43 < cdub> hollis: interesting, just tag code, and let toolchain figure it out for you
13:43 < hollis> yeah
13:43 < cdub> nice
13:43 < cdub> hollis: thanks for explanation
13:43 < hollis> sure
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14:10 < aliguori> tessier: well, once you get windows booting, you need to implement para-virtualized drivers for windows, get decent SVGA support, etc.
14:11 < riel> *sigh*
14:11 < riel> that ioemu code just won't build right in an RPM
14:11 < riel> mkdir -p ""
14:11 < riel> mkdir: cannot create directory `': No such file or directory
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14:19 < Tv> riel: sound like "$UNSET_VAR"
14:19 < Tv> riel: just wait till you hit the rm -rf "$UNSET_VAR/"  ;)
14:20 < riel> Tv: install: all
14:20 < riel>         mkdir -p "$(bindir)"
14:20 < riel> in the ioemu Makefile
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14:34 < aliguori> what's up with newlines in subject lines.. what client actually supports that?
14:34 < aliguori> i've never seen it so much as i do on the xen-devel list
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15:00 < tessier> Newlines in email subject lines? That is a big no no.
15:00 < tessier> It would screw up header parsing etc. I would think.
15:01 < hollis> maybe that explains the xen-commit mails that look funny
15:01 < hollis> I think their script does that
15:01 < hollis> (takes the whole multi-line description and uses it as the subject)
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15:49 < pwagland> Hi all!
15:51 < pwagland> I was here last night, and just wanted to thank hollis and rharper for helping out. WIth your help I figured out what the problem is, and now have a working HD with DMA :-)
15:51 < rharper> sweet
15:51 < hollis> pwagland: what was the problem?
15:51 < pwagland> Turns out that the generic driver was being loaded first, which meant that the via driver could not initialise the hardware.
15:52 < pwagland> And it would appear that the generic driver cannot configure DMA on the via.
15:52 < hollis> so you unconfigured the generic driver?
15:53 < pwagland> Yeah. unconfigured it, turned the via from module into 'Y' and now everything is fine.
15:53 < pwagland> I could probably have left the via as a module, but... :-)
15:54 < hollis> cool
15:54 < pwagland> The secret was knowing that hdparm should work from dom0. AFAIU under Xen1 xen set the DMA up?
15:54 < pwagland> At least that is the only thing that I could surmise from my google searches.
15:55 < pwagland> Knowing that it was the Dom0 kernel at fault then I could work out what to do to resolve it.
15:55 < pwagland> It may be worth while adding that as a FAQ, or in the docs somewhere, I read both and couldn't find the information.
15:57 < hollis> pwagland: maybe you could find a place to add a note in the Wiki?
16:01 < pwagland> OK...
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16:06 < Tv> I hate moving iso images to dom0 to burn them.
16:12 < pwagland> And I hate waking up at 6am... but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do ;-)
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17:02 < pwagland> Another interesting question for you all....
17:03 < pwagland> kernel: unregister_netdevice: waiting for vif7.0 to become free. Usage count = 1
17:03 < pwagland> I am figuring that this is bad...
17:03 < pwagland> But, is it known?
17:06 < pwagland> Or perhaps more interesting, is there anyone here? :-)
17:23 < pwagland> http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/HowToEnableDMA
17:23 < pwagland> If anyone has any ideas about the unregister_netdevice I am all ears! :-)
17:35 < jonmason> pwagland: I am here, and vif not shutting down is bad
17:36 < jonmason> pwagland: what did you do to break it?
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18:15 < mael_> hi soffi
18:16 < soffi> hi mael
18:16 < soffi> 'sup
18:16 < mael_> I found an open source project doing iscsi target
18:16 < soffi> cool
18:16 < mael_> thought it might be of interest for you
18:16 < mael_> http://iscsitarget.sourceforge.net/
18:16 < soffi> tellmetellmetellme
18:17 < soffi> old news :(
18:17 < mael_> as openiscsi is only the initiator stuff
18:17 < soffi> thanks though :)
18:17 < mael_> you knew it?
18:17 < mael_> :\ too bad I thought you'll be happy!
18:19 < soffi> :)
18:19 < soffi> I'm always happy
18:19 < mael_> that's cool then :)
18:20 < mael_> but did you try the iscsi target stuff?
18:24 < soffi> yup
18:24 < soffi> works well
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18:35 < mael_> well g'night
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19:35 < Sir_Ahzz> mael_ there's a channel for that I started as well. #ietd
19:36 < Sir_Ahzz> I use it on 2 machines with 1.4TB of disk space to export to a third machine, that then mounts the targets, manages the space with evms and re-exports as both iscsi targets and nfs mounts for the xen cluster here.
19:36  * Sir_Ahzz runs off to dinner.
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--- Log closed Fri May 20 23:59:00 2005