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--- Log opened Tue Jun 14 23:59:02 2005
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05:31 < rusty> Hi all.
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05:51 < mael> hi rusty 
05:51 < mael> mmh you moved again!
05:51 < mael> where are you at the moment?
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09:21 < zimbo> is the Xen version witch comes with FC4 ontopic here?
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09:54 < mael> zimbo: yes, it is the one and only
09:56 < zimbo> i have problems with it
09:56 < mael> (well, that's untrue, as you can see at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xen)
09:56 < mael> what kind of problem?
09:56 < zimbo> I have 3 machines here, one runs XEN ok, the other crashes during starting a domain (xm create), and the third crashes when it boot the xen0 kernel.
09:57 < mael> all under FC4?
09:57 < mael> what hardware?
09:58 < zimbo> The one witch works is a Opteron dual processor
09:58 < riel> the third could be an ACPI problem
09:58 < riel> what kind of error do you get on the second system?  it can't allocate memory?
09:58 < zimbo> The second is a P4-3.2 Ghz on a ASUS/ATI Chipset
09:59 < zimbo> when i try to "xm create ...." it just stops
09:59 < zimbo> no error, just freezes
09:59 < riel> mmmm, that's a new one for me
09:59 < riel> can you get backtraces via serial console ?
09:59 < mael> \O/
09:59 < zimbo> it tried the xendemo-2.0.5 on that machine, and there it works
10:00 < zimbo> i can attache a serial console, and look
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10:01 < zimbo> but i must reinstall FC4 on that machine. (Suse 93 also did not work with XEN, but this was a problem with /lib/tls and LVM)
10:02 < zimbo> you are right with the third one about ACPI. We have some problems with that machines and the SIS Chipset
10:05 < riel> the version of xen in FC4 has its own ACPI still
10:05 < riel> it doesn't use domain 0 ACPI
10:06 < riel> (I couldn't get that version to work with 2.6.12-rc* ...)
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10:12 < zimbo> I dont core about the third machine. I just wanted to reproduce the error on #2 on a P4 machine...
10:15 < zimbo> XEN should run fine on LVM? I can have swap, and all other things on LVM?
10:15 < mael> zimbo:  yes
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10:54 < zimbo> Do i have to set up special grub.conf lines to get serial working?
10:57 < rharper> zimbo: Here are the two lines I use for serial conn
10:57 < rharper> kernel /boot/xen.gz dom0_mem=524288 com1=115200,8n1 sched=sedf conswitch=x
10:57 < rharper> module /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.11-xen0 root=/dev/sda1 ro console=tty0
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11:12 < zimbo> i get no special output at the serial console, just the normal kernel messages
11:12 < zimbo> it still freezes at xm create
11:12 < zimbo> if i use noht on the kernel line it works
11:16 < doremifa> hello aliguori
11:16 < doremifa> anybody here uses vm-tools?
11:16 < aliguori> doremifa: i do :-)
11:16 < aliguori> i put out a new tarball last nigh
11:16 < doremifa> aliguori, where is libxen in the new version?
11:17 < aliguori> gone
11:17 < aliguori> too difficult to maintain with the rapid hypercall changes
11:17 < aliguori> it may go back in once 3.0 calms down a bit
11:17 < doremifa> so the new tool use default libxc instead?
11:17 < aliguori> yes
11:17 < aliguori> it wasn't as big of a change as it sounds.  the interfaces aren't that different
11:18 < doremifa> then you should mention it in the ChangeLog. that file is empty ;)
11:18 < aliguori> indeed!  I think that was an appeasement for autoconf
11:18 < doremifa> but that really confuses :-)
11:19 < aliguori> absolutely, i'll put up an updated tarball this morning
11:19 < doremifa> aliguori, could you put up a brief README or HOWTO on how to use it?
11:19 < aliguori> yup
11:21 < doremifa> aliguori, so can xenctld replace xend completely? ( i guess not)
11:21 < doremifa> what xend does, but xenctld doesnt ?
11:22 < aliguori> live migration is the only big missing feature
11:22 < aliguori> and the networking is a bit less user-friendly in vm-tools (although that's the next thing to fix)
11:23 < aliguori> live migration won't be added anytime soon because we want to do it right (with proper security and all)
11:23 < doremifa> i am surprised that xenctld is pretty small
11:23 < doremifa> around 3000 lines only
11:24 < aliguori> yup
11:24 < aliguori> there are some aspect of xend that cause it to be bloated.  the fact that it uses s-exprs internally means it needs a fully sexpr parser
11:24 < aliguori> since it uses python, there's a ton of code for bindings
11:25 < doremifa> hmm i dont see why sexpr is used ?
11:25 < zimbo> My problem is already described in https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=158367
11:25 < doremifa> i dont see any advantage at all
11:26 < aliguori> mike and i have discussed sexprs at great length. apparently his reserach is heavily dependent on it
11:26 < aliguori> i also don't see much of an advantage to it
11:27 < doremifa> his research? which research?
11:27 < aliguori> doremifa: he works for HP research.  he maintains xend because they use it for their research
11:27 < doremifa> is it possible convice xen team to use vm-tools for xen?
11:28 < doremifa> have you tried that?
11:28 < aliguori> i like the idea of having tools be a separate project
11:28 < aliguori> it's like including e2fs-utils with the kernel.  it doesn't make sense from a release-cycle perspective
11:29 < aliguori> if anything, i predict we'll see xen split up into separate projects after 3.0 (or at least into separate trees that are independently versioned)
11:30 < doremifa> separate projects? which kind of project?
11:30 < doremifa> xen/xend/xm ?
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11:32 < aliguori> i'd like to see independent releases for at least xen the hypervisor, the guest os ports, the tooling libraries (libxc), and higher level tools (xend)
11:33 < jonmason> aliguori: then you could roll you own
11:33 < doremifa> i agree
11:33 < jonmason> why would you wanna do that ;-)
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11:34 < doremifa> it is annoying to be forced to use a specific xen0/U with xen everytime xen releases new version
11:34 < jonmason> since everything is getting updated so often, it kinda makes sense
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11:35 < doremifa> jonmason, no
11:35 < doremifa> that make nonsense
11:35 < doremifa> you must give user choices, but not force them
11:36 < jonmason> doremifa: alot of changes that go into dom0, require domU changes (and vice versa)
11:36 < jonmason> if you run a 3.0 domU on a 2.0 dom0, things are going to break
11:36 < doremifa> jonmason, then it is better to make changes also on older domU
11:36 < jonmason> too many dependencies, its like saying that all changes that go into the 2.6 kernel should be in the 2.4 kernel
11:37 < doremifa> for ex, if i prefer 2.6.10 to 2.6.12 (because it breaks my system), then i still can use xen
11:37 < doremifa> so i like the idea of separate projects
11:38 < jonmason> I like the idea of seperate projects, because it will force a cleanup of the build enviornment
11:38 < jonmason> too many things are thrown into it
11:38 < jonmason> I hope that once Xen is included into mainline kernel, then build env will be cleaned up
11:38 < doremifa> aliguori, does xenctld support xenstore?
11:39 < aliguori> doremifa: there isn't much to use xenstore for at the omment
11:39 < doremifa> why?
11:39 < aliguori> jonmason: consider if post-3.0 there's a critical update to xend.  if you have to get a full version update for xen chances are that you'll end up having to restart your machine to install the latest hypervisor
11:39 < doremifa> you wait for xend to use it?
11:40 < aliguori> doremifa: the purpose of xenstore is for the devices to use it.  none of the devices use it currently
11:40 < aliguori> unlike xend, vm-tools will be not using xenstore as a general purpose database
11:41 < doremifa> so blkfe/blkbe will be adapted to xenstore soon?
11:41 < aliguori> doremifa:
11:41 < aliguori> yup
11:41 < aliguori> so all we do now, is pass a mfn to the store which is all we need to do
11:42 < aliguori> once blkif gets ported, we'll have to change the way we attach/remove block devices
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11:45 < doremifa> aliguori, i guess IBM use vm-tools extensively, rite?
11:45 < aliguori> doremifa: yup
11:45 < aliguori> brb
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12:12 < doremifa> aliguori, vm-tools has "auto discovery" feature. what does that mean?
12:13 < aliguori> device auto discovery
12:13 < aliguori> so before you create a domain you can attach and detach devices
12:14 < aliguori> and those devices will be discovered when the domain starts
12:14 < aliguori> auto discovery is one of the primary features of xenctld
12:14 < doremifa> i dont see that feature with xm?
12:14 < aliguori> that and control channel multiplexing
12:14 < aliguori> xend is a bit different because with xend you specify the configuration of a domain and start all in the same step
12:15 < aliguori> vm-tools is more loosely coupled
12:15 < doremifa> multiplexing is available with xcs 
12:15 < aliguori> indeed
12:15 < aliguori> but xcs is a pain and is unreliable
12:15 < doremifa> why not reliable?
12:15 < aliguori> there are a number of bugs in bugzilla today that are mostly likely caused by xcs dropping control messages
12:16 < aliguori> b/c it can broadcast the same control message to multiple domains (which can result in terrible behavior if your using multiple tool chains)
12:16 < aliguori> and b/c it does not have a very sophisticated queueing system for incoming messages
12:16 < aliguori> plus, it's overkill in my opinion
12:16 < aliguori> i think it's easier to just handle the discover in the multiplexing daemon than it is to push discovery to another daemon
12:17 < aliguori> which is why it's so much smaller than xend + xcs
12:17 < aliguori> i initially used xcs in vm-tools and it was a pain
12:18 < doremifa> i havent use vm-tools, but the code looks clean, indeed.
12:18 < aliguori> thanks :-)
12:20 < doremifa> i will play with the code, and if i find any problem, i will send patch ;-)
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15:07 < chrish01> so did the xen 3.0 xm server stuff completely change from 2.0?
15:07 < chrish01> cause it doesnt listen on 8000 anymore it seems
15:07 < chrish01> and the 8002 port seems to have a different protocol
15:10 < aliguori> chrish01: pretty much
15:10 < chrish01> are the new calls still HTTP? or is there anyway i can get that info
15:10 < chrish01> or did they stop using twisted for example
15:11  * chrish01 is trying to write xenmanager against 3.0 now
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15:26 < aliguori> chrish01: oh, you're the author of xenmanager :-) i've been trying to get a copy of it for a fair bit of time
15:26 < aliguori> chrish01: twisted is gone.. i think HTTP is still used but I'm not sure if the protocol has changed
15:26 < aliguori> chrish01: how does one download xenmanager from your site?
15:27 < chrish01> yea, im working on making it use async calls and work on xen 3.0
15:27 < aliguori> i know that sounds like a stupid question but I can't seem to find a link :-)
15:27 < chrish01> aliguori, its really not useful atm
15:27 < chrish01> svn only also
15:27 < aliguori> ah, ok
15:27 < chrish01> once its actually slightly useful, i will make a tarball
15:27 < aliguori> is there an svn-anon interface?
15:28 < chrish01> svn co https://monosvn.mosaix.net/xenmanager/trunk/xenmanager
15:28 < aliguori> chrish01: I'm obviously interested in seeing what can be done with it and vm-tools so anything works for me
15:28 < aliguori> chrish01: thanks
15:28 < chrish01> this is my first python project as well, so its a learning process. im hoping if the new api is better, i can actually write this in c# or even C
15:30 < aliguori> c#??
15:30 < aliguori> wow.
15:30 < chrish01> mono
15:30 < aliguori> yeah, I figured that
15:30 < aliguori> but that's a big dependency
15:31 < chrish01> thats why i was saying C even
15:31 < chrish01> anything to get away from python =/
15:31 < chrish01> my main reason is i would like to write a plugin interface
15:31 < aliguori> chrish01: i know the feeling :-)
15:31 < chrish01> to allow for things like cpu graphs and such
15:31 < chrish01> and the ability to do snmp polling and all that fun stuff
15:32 < aliguori> yeah, once you start including other management functions (snmp, lvm, etc.) python starts to show it's weaknesses
15:32 < chrish01> exactly
15:33  * hollis will hear none of it
15:33 < newsham> python doesnt have a good snmp library?   someone should port scotty, thats got to be the best snmp implementation ever
15:33 < chrish01> heh
15:33 < aliguori> hollis: none of what?  python has terrible parted bindings
15:33 < hollis> la la la
15:33  * hollis covers ears
15:33 < aliguori> lol!
15:33 < chrish01> i think the only thing i like about python is the pygtk bindings
15:34 < aliguori> i would expect that from srp, not hollis :-)
15:34 < newsham> uh, i've used many python bindings.  most of them have been very good.
15:34 < aliguori> chrish01: yes, gtk is much nicer in python than in C
15:34 < newsham> (including pygtk)
15:34 < hollis> no, srp would start babbling about how python lacks some bizarre functional language property ;)
15:34 < chrish01> but no-one has better gtk bindings that gtk#
15:34 < newsham> this channel is about xen, no?
15:35 < chrish01> depends on who you ask :)
15:35 < hollis> indeed
15:35 < chrish01> looks like its back to tcpdumping to get this api
15:36 < aliguori> the real question is what is xen..  how far down the stack does it constitute
15:36 < aliguori> chrish01: tcpdumping??  yikes
15:36 < newsham> thats like asking what is zen ;-)
15:36 < aliguori> at least use ethereal :-)
15:36 < chrish01> heh
15:37 < chrish01> what i really dont get is i see in the xend code that localhost:8000 is the default server, but somehow xend is listening on 8002
15:38 < chrish01> oic, XendRoot.py
15:38 < aliguori> chrish01: xend uses a number of ports.. i think i recall 8002 as the event port
15:38 < aliguori> relocation
15:38 < aliguori> huh
15:38 < chrish01> yea
15:38 < chrish01> event is 8001
15:39 < aliguori> ohh
15:39 < aliguori> migration
15:39 < chrish01> ok, bbiab. gonna reboot laptop to xen
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20:33 < tony> surriel: do you know what the status is of Xen in FC5? I noticed there was no Xen kernel for 2.6.11-1.1381.
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21:02 < surriel> tony: oh boy
21:02 < surriel> I guess davej disabled it for some reason and forgot to tell me ;)
21:06 < tony> surriel: ah. thanks.
21:06 < tony> surriel: I keep hoping the reboot bug will get fixed.
21:07 < surriel> I'll eventually upgrade to newer upstream xen code ;)
21:07 < surriel> but I think I should spend a bit of time actually doing development, instead of just porting and packaging
21:07 < tony> Ah. That explains it then.  I assumed new code was being sucked down into the various rawhide revisions, but the problem never cleared itself up/.
21:08 < chrish01> whats the reboot bug?
21:08 < chrish01> the one where it stops on dom0 reboot/power down?
21:08 < tony> On the FC4 kernels (at least upto the FC4/FC5 split) if I reboot dom1,  it sits there at "restarting systen" until on dom0 I do an xm list,  which then kicks off the reboot.
21:09 < chrish01> oh fun
21:09 < tony> I was at the point where I was going to look at it, as it was annoying me.   Then I found that I'd missed the FC4 announcement and my yum upgrade of rawhide picked up FC5 stuff but no Xen kernel.
21:09 < chrish01> with smp systems, when i power down dom0, it doesnt shut off the machine. but i think thats a bug with acpi and/or linux+smp
21:10 < tony> chrish01: no, this is UP.  It's just annoying to not be able to cleanly reboot a domain. 
21:11 < chrish01> sounds like it
21:11 < tony> I guess I should start building a custom kernel with a more recent xen than what Rik was using.
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 15 23:59:00 2005