--- Day changed

--- Log opened Wed Jun 15 23:59:02 2005
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04:28 < mael> hi rusty 
04:35 < rusty> mael: hi!
04:35 < mael> so you're travelling again?
04:36 < rusty> mael: no, at home.
04:37 < rusty> Not travelling for *weeks* now (until OLS/KernelSummit/NetworkSummit)
04:37 < mael> uh home?
04:37 < mael> oh yeah I guess this is a timezone problem :)
04:38 < mael> I thought you were supposed to be working and connecting with a .ibm.au.com adress
04:41 < mael> rusty:  is xenstore something completly separate from the new xen control tool interface?
04:52 < doremifa> rusty, i see a message on ML about dom0 bootstrap for xenstore. what is that?
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06:37 < rusty> mael: Yes
06:37 < rusty> doremifa: the backends need to talk to the xenstore too.
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07:59 < frealek> hi
08:05 < frealek> question about linux kernel 2.6.11.12 and xen-enabled kernels : is the 2.6.11.12 equivalent to vmlinuz-2.6.11-xen0 ? 
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08:10 < frealek> i.e. : how would the 2.6.11.12 vmlinuz  be integrated in the Xen environment ?
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08:16 < frealek> what's the difference between 2.6.11.12 and vanilla 2.6.11 + xen + patches ?
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08:49 < frealek> anyone alive...?
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09:03 < albeiro> hey :)
09:03 < frealek> hey :D
09:03 < albeiro> traced ya ;p
09:03 < frealek> heh
09:04 < albeiro> but am pretty interesting having rsbac working on xen
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09:09 < mael> frealek:  xen is an other arch, different from x86
09:09 < frealek> mael: I've seen this
09:09 < mael> differences mainly concerns the way to deal with memory access
09:09 < mael> (afaik)
09:10 < mael> so a vanilla kernel won't work with xen
09:10 < frealek> mael: but I read on the net that "Xen is found in 2.6.11.12"
09:10 < mael> it will segfault
09:10 < frealek> that has to mean something
09:10 < mael> that has to mean that the guy who wrote that was wrong :)
09:10 < mael> url?
09:10 < mael> (I might be wrong also)
09:11 < frealek> http://216.239.57.104/search?hl=fr&q=2.6.11.12+Xen&btnG=Recherche+Google&lr=
09:11 < frealek> (IP is google, CNAME google.fr is glitching here)
09:13 < mael> quoting the first article in your search : "Xen is not yet integrated into the new 2.6.11.12 kernel"
09:13 < albeiro> when do you expect it to fully integrate ?
09:14 < mael> well I don't know, I'm not a xen dev :)
09:14 < mael> (even if I wish I could be able to :))
09:15 < frealek> "Xen is included with the 2.6.11.12 kernel as a standard configuration option" ?
09:16 < frealek> ah ok
09:16 < frealek> it's an updated article
09:17 < mael> must be an error, I've been grepping the sources and I have no match
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09:18 < frealek> #xen-rsbac @ irc.freenode.net
09:18 < mael> only match is on the debian/rules file, but it could be specific to my configuration
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09:20 < frealek> I've grepped the 2.6.11.12 sources too, with no success at all. that means the google's quote is based on an old version of the article
09:21 < mael> probably
09:21 < mael> and I guess this is a mistake betwenn 2.6.12 and 2.6.11.12
09:22 < frealek> aha
09:22 < frealek> IC
09:24 < adrianoc> when i configure rootserver? host=10.10.102.2, domain=, nis-domain=(none),
09:24 < adrianoc>      bootserver=1.2.3.4, rootserver=1.2.3.4, rootpath=
09:28 < mael> frealek:  where are you from? I don't know where your NRA (4va54) is located
09:29 < frealek> whois $IP | grep -i country:
09:29 < frealek> grep -i descr:  too
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09:54 < adrianoc> i am use NFS with VBDs for ttylinux, but it break here.
09:54 < adrianoc>  bootserver=10.10.102.1, rootserver=10.10.102.1, rootpath=
09:54 < adrianoc> Looking up port of RPC 100003/2 on 10.10.102.1
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10:05 < mufa> hi, why xendomains doesn't start when boot time? 
10:06 < mufa> I mean the daemon is starting, but domains from /etc/xen/auto aren't initalized
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10:26 < sdague> when did the xen build start requiring SDL headers, or is it always that way and I just missed it?
10:26 < doremifa> sdague, you better compile it this way:
10:27 < doremifa> make XEN_NO_IOEMU=a world
10:27 < doremifa> then you are fine without SDL things
10:27 < doremifa> or "make XEN_NO_IOEMU=doremifa dist" is fine ;-)
10:27 < sdague> doremifa: well, I just installed the SDL-devel packages, as that was fast, but it is something I hadn't noticed until today
10:28 < sdague> thanks for the advice though :)
10:28 < mael> this is for VTX stuff no?
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10:37 < doremifa> i guess high end system (like ia64) has ioemu, not necessarily vtx
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11:01 < doremifa> hi aliguori 
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11:02 < doremifa> aliguori, some problem in unix.c of vmtools. you should fix it
11:06 < aliguori> doremifa: really?
11:06 < aliguori> what?
11:06 < doremifa> take a look, you will see what ;)
11:06 < doremifa> looks like you combine 2 files to that file
11:07 < aliguori> no, that's actually correct :-)
11:07 < doremifa> correct? 
11:08 < aliguori> i pulled the daemonize function from another project i had written, so it has a different copyright than the stuff i did for ibm
11:08 < aliguori> although i better change it...
11:08 < doremifa> ah. never seen such a case before.
11:08 < doremifa> so you better split it into 2 files
11:08 < aliguori> well, i'm just gonna change the copyright
11:08 < doremifa> cause that confuses people
11:09 < aliguori> indeed
11:09 < aliguori> just fixed it in CVS.  am putting out 0.1.5 in a couple hours
11:10 < doremifa> do you expose the cvs to outside?
11:10 < aliguori> not currently
11:11 < doremifa> then please put in some brief HOWTO. 
11:11 < aliguori> it's in our todo
11:11 < doremifa> perhaps i will use it instead of xend/xm, which is too bloated
11:11 < aliguori> that's why 0.1.5 has not gone out yet :-)
11:11 < doremifa> looks good ;-)
11:12 < aliguori> we're also actually using a ChangeLog now too
11:12 < doremifa> then it looks more serious now :)
11:14 < doremifa> i read the code, and some files look weird. you are willing to put #include anywhere you like
11:14 < aliguori> doremifa: do you have examples?
11:15 < doremifa> like io.c ?
11:15 < aliguori> i know i sometimes do it for testing but i'd hope i'd have removed it
11:15 < aliguori> oh, that's a test harness
11:15 < doremifa> i see that, but never seen such a practice before. 
11:15 < aliguori> yeah, that's actually reasonably common.  you'll see the same thing in some of the xen code
11:16 < doremifa> i think that is a bad habit
11:16 < doremifa> dont think such code will be accepted into kernel ;)
11:16 < aliguori> i'm not sure i agree
11:17 < aliguori> hehe, fortunately xenctld would never go in the kernel
11:17 < aliguori> and the kernel doesn't exactly have the highest code standards either :-)
11:17 < aliguori> i've seen some wickedly ugly kernel code
11:17 < doremifa> at least there is a coding style guide for kernel
11:17 < aliguori> yup
11:17 < doremifa> xen code is pretty messy
11:18 < doremifa> and nobody cares about that. too bad
11:18 < aliguori> that i fully agree with :-)
11:18 < riel> people will ;)
11:18 < aliguori> xen has a nasty include policy too
11:18 < riel> Xen will stop being a research project soon
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11:18 < riel> say, within the next year or two ;)
11:18 < doremifa> at least sombody must take a look before push patches into repo.
11:18 < aliguori> riel: I hope so :-)
11:19 < doremifa> i heard that xensource will try to make money with it
11:19 < doremifa> from what i read yesterday
11:19 < riel> xen 3 will be a bear to maintain
11:19 < aliguori> everyone's trying to make money from xen :-)
11:19 < riel> for xen 4 we should work on maintainability as a goal
11:20 < aliguori> riel: i fully heartedly agree
11:20 < doremifa> dont know any big change after xen3.
11:20 < doremifa> we cannot know the future
11:21 < riel> but we can create it ;)
11:21 < doremifa> i think there are still some big changes after xen 3
11:22 < riel> we even know some of them already
11:22 < riel> eg. the sHype stuff
11:22 < aliguori> yup
11:22 < doremifa> ah, never heard about shype for a long time. any news, aliguori ?
11:22 < aliguori> i'd really like to see some of the pre-virtualization stuff be integrated
11:22 < aliguori> doremifa: there's been a bit of news.  it's all now referred to as xense
11:23 < doremifa> i know that, but dont see any progress on it
11:23 < aliguori> there's a group working on xense..  at this point, i think all the major players are involved (nsa, etc)
11:23 < doremifa> they must work behind the curtain
11:23 < riel> I'm not convinced about pre-virtualization
11:23 < riel> it could create big support headaches
11:23 < aliguori> howso?
11:23 < riel> third party kernel modules ;)
11:23 < doremifa> what is pre-virtualization?
11:23 < aliguori> isn't that already a big support headache? :-)
11:24 < aliguori> you could modify the kernel loader to only load modules with appropriate previrtualization sections too
11:24 < riel> yes, but if they need to be pre-processed before being able to use them you're in even bigger trouble ;)
11:24 < riel> do you trust third party driver suppliers (and users!) enough for that?
11:25 < aliguori> riel: i'd rather just not support third party drivers :-)
11:25 < aliguori> do you trust third party driver suppliers to port their drivers to xen?
11:25 < riel> that is a lot easier to verify ;)
11:26 < riel> "does it exists?"  vs  "are the pre-virt headers complete?"
11:26 < doremifa> hey guys, what is pre-virtualization? 
11:26 < riel> also, I'm not sure how pre-virtualization interacts with debugging symbols
11:27 < aliguori> riel: there's no problem.  pre-virtualization pads the sensitive instructions with no-ops giving enough room to insert para-virtualization code
11:27 < aliguori> so no addresses change
11:28 < riel> ok cool
11:28 < hollis> doremifa: there have been some posts about it to the xen-devel list
11:28 < doremifa> ah, a project from Germany?
11:28 < aliguori> doremifa: it's a mechanism created by the l4ka group that basically automates porting a guest OS to Xen
11:28 < doremifa> i see that
11:28  * riel wonders how pSeries kernels currently run both LPAR and native - does that use similar ideas ?
11:28  * aliguori points to hollis
11:28 < rharper> aliguori: or to any hypervisor, right?  they mentioned that it was too soon to have a common hypervisor 
11:29 < hollis> riel: no
11:29 < aliguori> rharper: yup
11:29 < hollis> riel: ppc64 detects if it's on LPAR or not, then sets a bunch of function pointers appropriately
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11:36 < doremifa> i see that recently very few patches get into repo. why? 
11:38 < aliguori> things are stablizing..  cambridge team is probably burning a lot of cycles on finding a new SCM
11:38 < aliguori> 3.0-testing is right around the corner
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12:35 < xai> Is there a make target that Only downloads the kernels (in the src distribution)
12:37 < xai> and sets everything else up. I just want to tweak my kernels before building.
12:37 < visik7> is true that 3.0 will support windows ?
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12:41 < rharper> xai: make kernels should go right to the kernel builds 
12:44 < xai> rharper: i guess I don't want it to build before I have a chance to tweak the .config's
12:46 < rharper> xai: just control-c once it starts... there isnt any target that stops after pulling the kernel and building it, but once the tree is prepped, I can go in and do a make ARCH=xen menuconfig, and then rerun the make kernels and it will use my config instead of the default 
12:48 < xai> If I tweak the .config files, can I do a "make dist" again to recompile the kernels?
12:49 < xai> rharper: i've been doing the same as you for kernel builds.
12:51 < xai> Does "make kernels"  install to the local dist dir?
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12:51 < rharper> xai: yes, but you have to be careful to remove the existing dist/ directory, as the kernel build makefile will copy existing config files from dist/ , so if I want to change my kernel configuration, I will do a make ARCH=xen menuconfig in the linux tree, and then rm -rf dist/ before running make dist 
12:51 < rharper> xai: yes, make kernels will install to dist/ 
12:52 < xai> rharper: thanks: i don't remember doing the "rm -rf dist/" stuff..
12:54 < rharper> xai: it is only needed if you change your kernel config from the last time the kernel was built... 
12:59 < xai> Is "make install" different than "install.sh" ?
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13:03 < xai> Are there docs on how to get FreeBSD working in a XenU?
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13:07 < visik7> there are config file examples
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13:11 < xai> Do i need to build my own freebsd filesystem and kernel?
13:12 < visik7> there are some prebuilded kernel and fs
13:13 < visik7> somewhere 
13:15 < xai> Will 2.0.5 XenU kernels work with 2.0.6 Xen0 ?
13:15 < xai> Do I need to upgrade all my XenU's ?
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13:32 < xai> Does anyone know how to get the terminal size to work in XenU? my terminal wraps on itself on long lines.
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13:39 < xai> The wrapping oly happens in xm consoles.. not in ssh sessions.\
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15:26 < thelsdj> couple random annoyances i've noticed so far with xen, dhcp sometimes seems to take an extraordinary amount of time to come up? (i don't think its my dhcp servers fault) also i notice that when connected to console it doesn't appear to take the size of my xterm into account when running programs like nano or vi, are these known issues or are there workarounds?
15:27 < murble> thelsdj: could it be that the bridging interface takes a while to go into a forwarding state?
15:27 < murble> maybe you should turn off spanning tree if you don't have more than one external interface.
15:28 < chrish01> thelsdj, i think you console problem has to do with the console app in xm more than anything
15:29 < newsham> the console app probably doesnt communicate window size changes to the guest OS (some of which might not like the notion of a console changing size)
15:29 < thelsdj> murble: possibly, ya dhcp comes up instantly if i 'reboot' but if i shutdown and create the vm again it takes a long time
15:29 < newsham> you can use the stty command to set the dimensions in the guest
15:31 < newsham> (assuming its a unix :)
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15:57 < xai> Will Fbsd work from an LVM volume?
15:58 < riel> if you export the logical volume as a vbd, it won't know the difference ;)
15:58 < riel> and should just work
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15:59 < murble> xai: it does
15:59 < murble> (just work)
15:59 < xai> riel: by export, what do you mean? filesystem?
15:59 < murble> if you take zcat mdroot.gz  >/dev/vg-bah/freebsd
15:59 < murble> it will even put the label foo on there and "just work" well atleast until it crashes.
16:00 < xai> ok.. murble: are there any fbsd rootfs's available ?
16:00 < chrish01> has anyone used xen-unstable much? i see the new vmx stuff allows for different device models and such
16:00 < xai> on the xen websites or elsewise?
16:01 < chrish01> im curious if the SDL or whatever will allow for X in a xnest without XDMCP forwarding
16:01 < murble> xai: www.fsmware.com/xenofreebsd/5.3
16:02 < aliguori> chrish01: yup, all of the time
16:02 < aliguori> chrish0: I don't follow your second question
16:02 < chrish01> aliguori, im curious if i should go another route with xenmanager and try to support things like vmware with the console/gui embedded in a tab
16:02 < aliguori> chrish01: ohhh, so vmx hardware is not GA yet
16:02 < chrish01> but im not sure what all this new vmx stuff supports
16:03 < aliguori> so unless you work at intel, you'll have difficulty testing it :-)
16:03 < chrish01> ah ok
16:03 < aliguori> chrish01: what I previously looked into was integrating a VNC client into a GTK widget
16:03 < riel> aliguori: I suspect IBM has VT systems too ;)
16:03 < aliguori> directvnc might be a reasonable option
16:03 < chrish01> hmm
16:03 < aliguori> riel: yeah, but not many
16:04 < riel> same here, just a few
16:04 < chrish01> i just switched off 2.0 to 3.0 and having quite a few *issues*
16:04 < aliguori> directvnc uses directfb.. you might be able to trick directfb to show in a gtk window
16:04 < chrish01> like, no longer do i see xend listening on 8000 for the HTTP api. which totally fucks xenmanager since that is how it talks
16:04 < xai> murble: thanks..
16:04 < aliguori> chrish01: right now i'm trying to support both 2.0 and 3.0 for vm-tools.. it's a bit challenging
16:04 < chrish01> aliguori, im curious if i can wrap vm-tools instead (in c#)
16:05 < chrish01> aliguori, that might be better since i cant stand python
16:05 < aliguori> chrish01: you certainly can
16:05 < chrish01> aliguori, does it support remote connections? or local only?
16:05 < aliguori> chrish01: local connections
16:05 < chrish01> it would be nice to be able to connect to local machines like i can now :(
16:05 < aliguori> however, if you're willing to use an exec interface, you can just use ssh as a medium
16:05 < aliguori> i won't do what xend does because it's very insecure
16:06 < chrish01> yea, that sounds ok and was how i was going to do secure comm. in the first place
16:06 < aliguori> for our target audience, open tcp ports isn't an option :-)
16:06 < chrish01> nod
16:06 < chrish01> same here
16:06 < aliguori> chrish01: you might try initially using an exec wrapper to the xm commands
16:06 < chrish01> aliguori, you got baz/svn/cvs repo?
16:07 < aliguori> b/c vm-tools doesn't have some of the features that xend has
16:07 < aliguori> mainly because we're trying to solve some of the security problems before supporting them (so for instance, we don't do live migration)
16:07 < aliguori> chrish01: an internal cvs repository for now.  we're working on figuring out how to do a public repository
16:08 < chrish01> aliguori, as long as it does well what it is meant to do
16:08 < chrish01> aliguori, anyway i can get read-only rsync maybe?
16:08 < xai> murble: i hate to be dense, but mdroot is a compressed filesystem right?
16:08 < chrish01> anything so if i started wrappers, when it changes i can work off new changes immediately
16:08 < xai> murble: so is it a unionfs?
16:11 < murble> xai: it is just a raw image with labelufsimage
16:11 < murble> so you can zcat >myfile
16:11 < murble> losetup /dev/loopBLAH myfile
16:11 < murble> and use /dev/loopBLAH as your fs
16:13 < xai> murble: using it in an lvm doesn't require loopback though?
16:14 < murble> no it doesn't.
16:14 < murble> so instead you could extract it to an lv device that also worked for me.
16:15 < murble> but the kernel is abit picky about boot options i suggest you follow the example closely.
16:16 < xai> ok.. I thought I'd have to mount it loopback first and copy the files intot he lvm.
16:16 < murble> nah
16:17 < murble> just gzip -dvc mdroom.gz >/dev/mylvdevice
16:17 < xai> murble: that's too easy :)
16:18 < murble> xai: the netbsd installation is even easier.
16:18 < xai> I just need to wait for the heat to go down. can't boot my server in the garage :0
16:18 < murble> allocated block device to it boot their install_kernel image.
16:18 < murble> and works much better than freebsd atleast when i was last playing with it.
16:18 < murble> oh and comes with complete cross compliation toolchain for linux.
16:18 < xai> murble: cool. I need both for testing.
16:19 < xai> very cherry.
16:19 < murble> netbsd xen foo is also support google and you'll find howtos etc.
16:19 < murble> s/support/&ed/
16:19  * murble -> bed
16:22 < thelsdj> how does live migration deal with a switched network? i would asume a switch wouldn't know to send traffic to new host until there was an outbound packet from the new host, also does xen send any stray packets that arrive at old host to new after moved?
16:26 < xai> I think both systems need to be on the same switch fabric.
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16:26 < xai> There are some requirements for migration in the docs.
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16:38 < hollis> remind me where the xensource.com bk tree is?
16:38 < hollis> ah nm, found it
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