--- Day changed

--- Log opened Mon Jun 20 23:59:02 2005
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01:19 < lilo> 3D
01:19 < lilo> whoops
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01:55 < bunoc> anybody knows when mecurial repo ready?
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03:25 < rusty> Anyone want to tell me what ioemu is for in qemu?
03:26 < rusty> s/qemu/xen/
03:26 < muli_> rusty, providing devices to fully-virtualized VTx/pacifica domains
03:26 < muli_> they're fully virtualized, which means they use the standard OS drivers, which means you have the emulate the "hardware" side of the devices
03:27 < muli_> or at least that's my understanding
03:27 < rusty> muli: ah, right.  That makes sense.
03:28 < rusty> muli: a README which points out it's ripped straight from the qemu code would be polite.
03:28 < muli_> rusty, it used to be ripped out of bochs, didn't know they switched to qemu
03:28 < muli_> but anyway, I agree...
03:29 < bunoc> anybody tell me if I need to enable front device driver in dom0?
03:30 < bunoc> i guess not?
03:30 < bunoc> ( both block front and network front )
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03:30 < rusty> bunoc: I should think not!
03:32 < bunoc> then why they are enabled by default ?
03:32 < muli_> so that you could use the same kernel for dom0 and domU, probably
03:33 < bunoc> muli, i dont think many people do that kind of thing, so better turn it off
03:33 < muli_> bunoc, I disagree... what does it cost? a few 100ks, at most?
03:36 < bunoc> yes. i am happy even if i can reduce the kernel size by 1K. if somebody wants to use the same kernel for all the domains, they can turn those options on.
03:37 < bunoc> i think not many people use the same kernel everywhere
03:37 < muli_> bunoc, if you use Linux as a guideline, almost everyone use the same kernel... the "let's minimize the footprint" crowd is minimal
03:37 < muli_> but hey, send a patch to the list and we'll see what happens :-)
03:38 < bunoc> i am too lazy to do that ;-)
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04:04 < mael> hi rusty 
04:05 < rusty> mael: hi!
04:06 < mael> so, defending widow Qemu and orphan Bochs against evil Xen? :)
04:06 < rusty> mael: well, qemu is developing fairly fast, eg. the 0.6.1 in the xen tree is already old vs qemu 0.7.
04:07 < mael> rusty:  yes but afaik driver support in qemu is not going *that* fast
04:08 < mael> actually, I'm getting a bit sceptical about the use of VTX and the like in Xen
04:09 < mael> because it would have been interesting is you allowed access to the real hardware so you'll get support for devices dom0 can't deal with
04:10 < mael> but if you need a software emulation layer, performances won't be good and unknown/underused devices will stay in that state
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04:12 < Tv> mael: direct access to hardware is not safe, though, so most people do not want that.
04:12 < mael> well, I'm not sure of that
04:13 < mael> If Xen is used on a workstation or at home, direct access to the graphical card will probably be wanted
04:14 < mael> if you can dedicate that device to a VTX domain, that would be useful
04:14 < Tv> yes, in that use case
04:14 < mael> but you have several other cases
04:14 < Tv> I'm afraid that's a rare use case.
04:14 < Tv> with current Xen, that is
04:14 < mael> yeah and we know why :)
04:15 < mael> I'd like Xen to become equivalent to Vmware ACE
04:15 < Tv> being open source, it can overcome silly marketing classifications ;)
04:16 < mael> well I was not talking of marketing actually, but features
04:16 < mael> Xen might be used to manage workstations in enterprises
04:17 < muli_> so sHype went in....
04:17 < mael> but if you stick to graphic cards we had in 1985, I don't think this is going to be useful
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04:50 < Akatemik> Whiw, finally on the right channel
04:51  * tessier wonders what graphics card he had in 1985
04:51 < tessier> I didn't have a computer in 1985.
04:53 < tessier> My first graphics card was some sort of EGA card though. In....1989 or 90
04:54 < rusty> mael: full virtualization will always be a second class citizen.
04:55 < Akatemik> Having a bit of routing difficulties with the Xen livecd, could you point me to the scripts where the subdomains set their routing tables?
04:55  * tessier smacks full virtualization around like a red-headed stepchild
05:04 < mael> rusty:  yeah and that's a pity if you ask me
05:06 < rusty> mael: Hmm, well, making Windows a second class citizen is pretty nice to me 8)
05:07 < mael> hehe
05:07 < mael> actually I was also thinking about stuff that's only supported with a binary only module of some sort
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06:08 < Akatemik> Humm, now I got it working
06:09 < blurg> that sucks
06:09 < Akatemik> blurg: Well that was nice
06:09 < blurg> ;-)
06:10 < Akatemik> I managed to get the livecd bridge properly
06:10 < Akatemik> Only needed a couple of hours going through the config scripts and reading a few bridge howtos
06:11 < blurg> shouldn't a livecd work out of the box?
06:11 < Akatemik> It only works locally
06:11 < Akatemik> All the subdomains live on virtual lan
06:11 < blurg> ah, separated from the nasty world.
06:12 < Akatemik> Even the domain0 does not automaticly connect to network
06:12 < Akatemik> Indeed
06:12 < blurg> how is that livecd anyway?
06:12 < blurg> still maintained?
06:12 < Akatemik> Seems to me, running 2.6.11
06:12 < Akatemik> Now moving on to netbsd side
06:12 < blurg> ah, yeah.
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06:13 < blurg> who? you? or the livecd maintainer?
06:13 < Akatemik> There are some problems still though. Like disconnected vncviewer prevented me from running any new xprograms
06:13 < Akatemik> Very weird, have to look into that next
06:14 < Akatemik> blurg: You mean the kernel, it's from the live cd. Or the netbsd? I meant that I will now start to make the netbsd virtual servers on the livecd.
06:15 < Akatemik> Hmm, connection to ":0.0" refused by server
06:16 < blurg> running as wrong user
06:16 < Akatemik> That's what comes for every Xprogram after the vnc crashed (I changed the subdomain's ip on the fly)
06:16 < Akatemik> blurg: Worked just before
06:16 < blurg> well, usually the xserver authorizes you, as the owner
06:17 < blurg> it is not authorized to show its output on your display
06:18 < Akatemik> How can the xvncviewer mess that up?
06:19 < blurg> I am not sure what you are trying to do?
06:19 < Akatemik> Opening any Xprogram
06:19 < Akatemik> Like xclock
06:19 < Akatemik> Within the domain0 X session
06:20 < Akatemik> Everything worked just fine, but after the xvncviewer was killed on the fly no new windows are allowed to open (that was the error message when trying from xterm)
06:23 < blurg> as what user are you trying to start it up?
06:23 < Akatemik> Root
06:23 < Akatemik> Which is the only user on the livecd
06:23 < blurg> but, you logged in as yourselves via kdm/xdm or something?
06:23 < blurg> ow, okay.
06:28 < blurg> Well, read the Xsecurity manpage, it might help
06:28 < Akatemik> Hmm, will try that
06:28 < blurg> it talks about how programs are authorized to output to your display
06:29 < blurg> you can also do a quick check by trying again, after typing xhost + 
06:29 < Akatemik> Tried xhost, but it gives the same warning
06:30 < blurg> hm
06:30 < blurg> maybe the vncviewer removed your Xauthority file?
06:31 < Akatemik> Nope, still there
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06:50 < marl_work> quick question, im running xen with debian 2.6.11-10 as dom0 and im starting redhat 2.6.9-5-custom, is there an easy way to patch the 2.6.9-5 kernel in domain1 so xen works ok?
06:52 < Akatemik> Couldn't you mount the redhat / and compile and install a new kernel from domain0?
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06:54 < marl_work> posibly, but that would meen download ALL the kernel stuff, and that could take a while, i was just wondering if there was a way to get a xen kernel version 2.6.9-5 that could be droped in place, cus when u install xen into debian it doesnt downlaod and recompile the entire kernel, it just apears to drop in a version compatible with the current running one (or am i talking a load of rubish and have totaly mis read all the stuf
06:54 < marl_work> f?) LOL
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07:06 < Akatemik> Blah, nothing on the mailinglists either
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08:25 < blurg> isn't it a lost socket which was not cleaned up?
08:25 < blurg> sorry, wrong window, plz ignore.
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08:59 < ultra_camel> hello? :)
09:01 < ultra_camel> having huge problems trying to get xen working on a dedicated server
09:02 < blurg> lo?
09:03 < ultra_camel> the hoster told me that the server looses its mac address and thats why i loose connection
09:03 < ultra_camel> only when i try to start a domain with "xm create xxx"
09:04 < ultra_camel> doesnt matter if i config routing or bridge
09:04 < ultra_camel> same problem
09:04 < ultra_camel> anyone? :(
09:05 < blurg> no, can't be of help I'm afraid
09:06 < blurg> did you check, -IF- that is the case?
09:07 < ultra_camel> well how?
09:07 < ultra_camel> i can only ssh to the server
09:07 < ultra_camel> and it doesnt log anything in the moment it crashes
09:08 < ultra_camel> tried all night and today to get it working somehow
09:08 < ultra_camel> tried it with precompiled stable and testing source
09:11 < blurg> how? ehm, ifconfig -a?
09:12 < blurg> have you access to the logs then?
09:15 < blurg> but you say two different things: loosing the MAC address and that the server crashes
09:18 < ultra_camel> dont think the server crashes
09:18 < ultra_camel> i just cant connect to the server until reboot
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09:19 < ultra_camel> i have access to logs
09:19 < ultra_camel> doesnt xen move the mac address between devices?
09:20 < ultra_camel> i mean interfaces
09:21 < ultra_camel> the strange thing is that it doesnt crash when i start xend
09:22 < ultra_camel> only after i try to start another domain after the automatically created domain0
09:22 < blurg> I work with unstable, which is loading a virtual ethernet interface vethx, which is overtaking the ip AND Mac from the eth0 interface.
09:22 < blurg> not sure, how it works with stable Xen.
09:22 < ultra_camel> shall i try that?
09:23 < blurg> try what?
09:23 < ultra_camel> dont think it uses vethx
09:23 < ultra_camel> unstable
09:23 < ultra_camel> only thing i havent tried
09:23 < blurg> well, that is not the right (and also not the easy) solution.
09:23 < ultra_camel> ok..
09:24 < blurg> did you build it yourself? Xen that is?
09:24 < ultra_camel> yes
09:25 < ultra_camel> same config i used on another server where it works
09:25 < blurg> no warnings or compile errs?
09:25 < ultra_camel> nope
09:25 < plars> ultra_camel: do you have iproute installed?
09:25 < ultra_camel> yes
09:25 < ultra_camel> oh iproute..
09:25 < ultra_camel> no iptables
09:25 < plars> ultra_camel: do you have the ip command?
09:25 < ultra_camel> yes
09:29 < ultra_camel> the only thing i can think of is that the hosters ids (Intrusion Detection System) is making problems
09:30 < ultra_camel> i guess thats the way they could tell me that the server looses its mac address
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09:39 < ultra_camel> do you have an advice where to ask next?
09:44 -!- unriel is now known as riel
09:44 < zimbo> ultra_caml disable hyperthreading
09:44 < zimbo> pun noth in grub.conf
09:44 < ultra_camel> zimbo no joke?
09:44 < zimbo> ooops that should mean "put noht in grub.conf"
09:45 < zimbo> yes happened with me. It a bug that also FC4 has
09:46 < ultra_camel> ok ill try that 
09:46 < ultra_camel> thx!!!
09:47 < zimbo> ultra_camel: look at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=158367
09:50  * blurg is glad someone could help ultra_camel 
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10:25 < ultra_camel> my xen server works all fine now! thanks a lot for the advice with "noht"
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10:47 < jason_> does anybody know if live migration only works for file-backed vbds?
10:48 < soffi> I think it does actually not work for file-backed vbds
10:49 < aliguori> jason_: live migration will not work with any non-network block devices
10:49 < soffi> use nfs, iscsi or sumtin
10:49 < aliguori> unless you're doing something funky
10:49 < soffi> but funky is sometimes good :P
10:49 < aliguori> definitely :-)
10:53 < jason_> what i'm doing will be somewhat funky
10:54 < jason_> i'll probably have lvm COW on a server shared using GNBD
10:59 < Sir_Ahzz> what is with people's obsession with COW filesystems?
11:00 < Sir_Ahzz> in real life use they almost inevitably fragment into completely unique instances over near-term.
11:00 < Sir_Ahzz> plus disk space is cheap, so is ram.
11:00 < riel> COW means faster deployment
11:01 < riel> and you can take snapshots
11:01 < riel> so if a customer messes up their virtual colo server, you can simply roll back to the latest working snapshot
11:01 < riel> no messing with backups
11:01 < Sir_Ahzz> I can take snapshots with lvm2 right now.
11:02 < Sir_Ahzz> as for faster deployment, untarring a base distro and sed-ing the config files with keywords is fast enough.
11:02 < Sir_Ahzz> long run if you grow to too many instances, youi run out of COWable space and can't easily splita group off.
11:02 < Sir_Ahzz> COW is good for rollback snapshots as you stated, but that's it in my experience.
11:09 < jason_> but they do save disk space, especially if the base install of a particular distro is quite large
11:09 < Sir_Ahzz> buy  larger disk. 300GB is only a hundred or two.
11:10 < Sir_Ahzz> but reality is the cow will diverge to mostly different eventually.
11:10 < Sir_Ahzz> last access time updates will definitly cause the filesystem metadata to diverge, and start scattering it across your disk.
11:10 < jason_> there's also the time factor of copying all the files of a base install
11:11 < Sir_Ahzz> in my experience the only way that a COW is truly usefull is if you make writes an exception rather than the norm.
11:11 < Sir_Ahzz> tar works fine and fast.
11:11 < Sir_Ahzz> For my customers i've foudn it works best if you do a base + ssh install and let them request or do thier own upgrades.
11:12 < Sir_Ahzz> makes for more secure and faster systems.
11:12 < Sir_Ahzz> the bad part about COWd pbase partitions is the spindle conflicts onc eyou hit more than a few active servers.
11:13 < Sir_Ahzz> and if you solve that with separate disks, you may as well just give out individual partitions.
11:13 < Sir_Ahzz> imagine 10 machines running the nightly cron jbs such as update-db, finding old tmp files, etc.
11:14 < Sir_Ahzz> if you COW you end up with them all starting that up at once and it becomes a nightmare.
11:14 < aliguori> Sir_Ahzz: there other models were COW make more Xen.. particularily if you've got a more sophisticated COW technology like content addressable storage
11:14 < Sir_Ahzz> *nod*
11:14 < aliguori> s/Xen/sense
11:14 < aliguori> strange slip..
11:14 < Sir_Ahzz> but I haven't seen any realistic implementations. once one is stable i'll re-evaluate my methods. :)
11:14 < Sir_Ahzz> hehe. 
11:15 < aliguori> that's because the only ones I know of are commercial products :-)
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11:15 < Sir_Ahzz> heh
11:15 < aliguori> in fact, I'm convinced that gmail is using CAS
11:15 < Sir_Ahzz> you could use COW to detect intrusions on websites.
11:16 < Sir_Ahzz> if COW == grown then alert.
11:16 < aliguori> as a forensic function, yes
11:16 < Sir_Ahzz> very fast method of detecting filesystem changes, and instant rollback.
11:16 < Sir_Ahzz> much better than monitoring individual files.
11:16 < aliguori> that assumes you maintain a log of changes
11:17 < Sir_Ahzz> when you make changes, simply reset the COW.
11:17 < aliguori> apparently there's a pretty decent cowloop driver that rharper was telling me about
11:17 < Sir_Ahzz> log of changes? on a cow? no. in the case of monitoring a filesystem at the file level, yes.
11:18 < Sir_Ahzz> I've been investigating best methods for monitoring services for intrusion/alteration.
11:18 < Sir_Ahzz> but I have yet to find a good instance for using a COW volume for the base system to be quite honest.
11:18 < rharper> aliguori: http://www.atconsultancy.nl/cowloop/home.html , needs a patch for CONFIG_SMP to fix its sched while atomic, but thats fairly simple 
11:18 < Sir_Ahzz> toher than backups, and LVM2 /EVMS uses cow temporarily for snapshots.
11:19 < aliguori> rharper: who uses CONFIG_SMP other than you ;-)
11:19 < aliguori> rharper: i'm at the site now.. didn't realize it could cow and block device...
11:20 < rharper> the reason I liked it was because it was cow over block devices... 
11:20 < aliguori> the code is nice and simple too
11:21 < rharper> yeah, I was just about to write that myself and figured I'd take a look to see if someone already did the work... 
11:22 < Sir_Ahzz> use losetup on regular files and LVM2 snapshot
11:22 < Sir_Ahzz> why rewrite it? Unless you are tryign to regain 1 or 4 % speedups.
11:23 < Sir_Ahzz> not to disparage any project mind you. 
11:23 < Sir_Ahzz> just wondering why the reinvention of the wheel.
11:23 < rharper> I was only going to write it if nothing was available,  I was happy to find that cowloop was doing what I needed
11:23 < Sir_Ahzz> *nod*
11:24 < Sir_Ahzz> probably make a good way to learn the vfs layer in linux.
11:24 < rharper> yeah
11:25 < Sir_Ahzz> btw, sorry if I seem a bit harsh on COW projects. :)
11:26 < Sir_Ahzz> being a contractor i'm used to being rather blunt on things that make no real sens in day to day use.
11:26 < hollis> interesting strategy for long-term employment ;)
11:27 < Sir_Ahzz> it costs me clients at times, but the ones that stay tend to be better clients and happier for my honesty
11:27 < hollis> fair enough :)
11:27 < Sir_Ahzz> I view choice-by-brand and political choices as one of the plagues of capitalism.
11:28 < Sir_Ahzz> we're here to make money and the best products possible, not to pat everyone on the back and throw money away
11:28 < Sir_Ahzz> just look at the last 10 yars in IT.
11:28 -!- aliguori [~anthony@cpe-70-112-81-91.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:28 < Sir_Ahzz> in the 90's it was all about what's hot, or who was who's favorite.
11:28 < hollis> brand is just reputation. surely you make decisions based on reputation...
11:29 < Sir_Ahzz> IT budgets went out of control.
11:29 < Sir_Ahzz> brand != reputation. individual products == main reputation. brand is a modifier of the product's individual reputation.
11:29 < Sir_Ahzz> but it by no means is the first qualifier for quality.
11:30 < hollis> when you visit a foreign city, you can bet that the Chili's restaurants there are pretty much like the ones you had back home
11:30 < hollis> even though they're totally different stores, different employees, etc
11:30 < Sir_Ahzz> the curent trend is to see what individual products work best for others before most companies jump in.
11:30 < Sir_Ahzz> *nod* but then you aren't in the other city for the chili's though.
11:30 < Sir_Ahzz> you are there for other reasons.
11:30 < hollis> hey, speak for yourself ;)
11:31 < Sir_Ahzz> *grin*
11:31 < Sir_Ahzz> paying attention to your real reasons and needs is paramount. it's one of the most common flaws in departments of companies that don't create a specific product for outside consumers.
11:32 < Sir_Ahzz> I've seen too many good ideas die because they lost sight of thier original reason for existance. 8-P
11:32 < Sir_Ahzz> take wildemail.com for example.
11:33 < Sir_Ahzz> before the system could be polished up they dove into new areas and stalled out the polishing.
11:33 < Sir_Ahzz> end result was the complete failure of the company.
11:34 -!- hollis [~hollis@user-0vvde2g.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: bbiab]
11:34 < Sir_Ahzz> as far as my earlier statement of being blunt at times, if a company isn't willing to, and actually listen to those under the top, then they are doomed to mediocrity or even worse, failure.
11:34 < Sir_Ahzz> drat. :)
11:35 < Sir_Ahzz> I ran them off. ;-P
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12:14 < albeiro>  
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12:25 < blurg> /quit
12:25 < blurg> crap
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21:37 < cilkay> Hi. Can I run Twisted2 instead of Twisted 1.3 for Xen?
21:42 < cilkay> nm, I found a package for Twisted 1.3
22:05 < cilkay> I see FATAL: Could not load /lib/modules/2.6.11.10-xen0/modules.dep in messages. There really isn't such a file. uname -a reports I'm running a Xen kernel. How can I work around this issue?
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22:11 < thelsdj> cilkay: just mkdir -p /lib/modules/2.6.11.10-xen0/ then 'depmod'
22:11 < thelsdj> that will make the message go away
22:11 < cilkay> thelsdj, thank you
22:11 < cilkay> will do
22:12 < cilkay> Actually, I have that directory. I just don't have the modules.dep so I'll depmod
22:12 < thelsdj> ya that works
22:14 < cilkay> Shorewall was complaining on startup because of that.
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22:26 < cilkay> Shorewall won't start probably because packet mangling, multi-port match, and connection tracking match are not available. I guess those were not compiled into the binary kernel I just installed.
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22:41 < malahal> hello, what does this error mean:
22:41 < malahal> [root@malahal ~]# xm create -c /etc/xen/domU.config vmid=1
22:41 < malahal> Using config file "/etc/xen/domU.config".
22:41 < malahal> Error: Error creating domain: (0, 'Error')
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 21 23:59:00 2005